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On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-04T01:51:30-00:00

What forms can it take? We've seen mostly wizardry, but there have also been sights into enchanting and a few with illusions. Are there silvertongues (people who channel essence into things they read to bring things to life), or bards (spoony or otherwise) with their Magic Music? What about people who draw Essence not from their surroundings, but from other people? Other living organisms?

For that matter, what about the 'mental' magics? Foresight, Clairvoyance, Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Telepathy, Empathy. How do these things function? Are there magical means to copy these psychic abilities, or do they stem from magic themselves? And how can they be used in magic, whether to aid or to counter?

Also, in something completely related, how does shielding work? What are the building blocks of it? Where are the limitations? Will one type of shielding (say, Empathy) work for Telepathy, Telekinesis, and Wizardry? Why do/don't they? Can they be made to reflect magic in or out (like using it to stop a powerful - like, Wiz-7 - caster to stop casting by redirecting their spells back onto them) or be permeated either way? Can they be set to triggers, emotional or verbal, to key them up? Would shielding affect the way essence is pulled in?

(I'm a Lackey fan, which is why I'm counting the psychic abilities as mind magic. That's what the Heralds call them. )

Re: On Magic...

khade — 2011-12-04T01:58:56-00:00

You've just managed to enter a massive argument between the mages and the psychics about if magic is a variant of psi abilities or if psi is just an odd expression of magic. The only winning move is to not play, I'd say. If you've read all the stories, you should have run into enchanting, illusions, people who have power through their voices, some with and some without music, and at least one instance of absorbing essence from living things.

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-04T02:04:48-00:00

The enchanter is the Artificer whose trying to own herself, and I remember the ectoplasmic illusions. The others, though, I don't remember reading about.

And with the domination power, that ought to be a power in and of itself. A form of hypnosis, if you will, one that takes place with the voice and not the eyes. Making it entirely different from Magic Music, because Bardic music is usually more illusionary and less controlling/domineering. Usually.

And I really don't remember the absorption thing (which I'm choosing to relate to Sorcery, considering the difference between Sorcery and Wizardry in D&D.).

Edit: Also, in something completely related but totally unsaid, how does shielding work? What are the building blocks of it? Where are the limitations? Will one type of shielding (say, Empathy) work for Telepathy, Telekinesis, and Wizardry? Why do/don't they? Can they be made to reflect magic in or out (like using it to stop a powerful - like, Wiz-7 - caster to stop casting by redirecting their spells back onto them) or be permeated either way? Can they be set to triggers, emotional or verbal, to key them up? Would shielding affect the way essence is pulled in?

Re: On Magic...

khade — 2011-12-04T02:23:08-00:00

Fay can do the absorbing from living things, she doesn't do it very often though, first time I remember in one of the later Ayla stories. Sara's partner during Halloween could do any sound he wanted, so can quite a few of the sirens, I'm choosing to call those who can't control people with their voices Divas, and there are several divas in the school i think, Illusions are one of Bugs specialties, though that's not magic, Fay uses magic illusions. Oh, and Outcast Corner is officially a group of bards, in what passes for fate.

I didn't say anything about domination, but sirens can control people, even strong willed people, as long as they can keep talking to them, that mesmerist guy that introduced Jade to Whateley could as long as he could look in their eyes, the thing done to Skybolt and Cavalier(don't know how far you've read) is domination in it's purest form.

I guess there could be mutants influenced by D&D or Valdemar, into manifesting in a way that looks like something from those, but it's not a given.

Though I'm still waiting for a Disgaea influenced short-tank pettanko/cute-shotaro-boy noble-demon psychopath.

Oh, another thing is that we don't know all of the mutants or supers and we don't know all of what can happen, if you want, you could always do a fan fiction though.

Edit

Oh, and just because the enchanter is an artificer doesn't mean she isn't still an enchanter.

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-04T02:29:20-00:00

I've read all of them thus far, though it's been a while. The domination thing was what I was referring to, with Skybolt and Calvalier. It's a kind of hypnosis, worming their way into your head and using that power to change things. To dominate. It's not the way REAL hypnosis would work, but these are mutants and whatnot. I thought Bugs was a Gadgetter, and the illusionist was the mentor that they all met in the beginning who used Ectoplasm to form illusions for that pranking war they were going through.

The outcast corner are bards, though? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, honestly. Off the top of my head I remember Aquila, that... serpentine lawyer lady, Diamond-something, and the Fear Twins in the outcast, and I think Jobe and his murderous clothing and Razorback were also part of it. Ragtag Bunch of Misfits I can see. Bards... not so much.

Edit: Also, I said that we saw Illusions and Enchanting in the stories, although Enchanting hasn't been done straight yet.

Re: On Magic...

khade — 2011-12-04T03:33:08-00:00

The Outcasts are actual bards, not D&D magic music spellcasters, though Diamondback could be one. Skybolt and Cavalier, henceforth known as Cavebolt, at least for this comment, were less hypnotism and more someone grabbing them by the soul and twisting.

Oh, Outcast Corner consists of Jericho on the guitar and vocals, Diamondback in vocals, Razorback on the base and maybe Eldritch on the drums. The other people aren't officially in their group, maybe they could be called the groupies.
In combat, Outcast Corner is Jericho as the Khaotic Klown, Razorback as the Ravaging Hunger, Diamondback as the Sorcerous Serpent-Queen, and Eldritch as the Unending Paingiver. Names subject to change without notice.

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-04T03:45:54-00:00

How did I get Jericho and Jobe mixed up... Oh well.

They're still not bards, even not taking Magic Music into account. Bards from D&D are singers for a reason - Bards were originally singers and story tellers employed by a king. Minstrels were the ones who wandered about. And none of them... Really have stories to tell, not the ones that a proper Bard - or even a minstrel - would know. Gilgamesh, Illiad, Odessy, one of the stories of the Irish Gods, Authur and his Knights... In an era in which these stories aren't well known. That's... Not really the Outcaste's thing.

With regard to Cavebolt, I had figured that the basis of the power was Hypnotic Eyes sharpened to an extremely powerful point by Don, for the better ability of mindrapage.

Re: On Magic...

polarone — 2011-12-04T04:40:52-00:00

Singer wrote on Sat, 03 December 2011 22:45

How did I get Jericho and Jobe mixed up... Oh well.

The crown prince(ss) of Karedonia takes offence at your confusing him/her with that blind simpleton.

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-04T04:48:18-00:00

Don't make me quote Black Sabbath at you. I'll do it too.

Re: On Magic...

pedestrian — 2011-12-04T05:28:36-00:00

It might be helpful to read a few more stories.

Outcast Corner are Musicians. Whether or not you can apply the title "Bard" to them depends on who gets to write the dictionary. It is hinted that whatever dictated the prophecy that Hekate got at least considered Razorback to be a "bard".

Bugs is a Deviser / Gadgeteer. Her specialty, or at least one of them, is FX. Her father works in that field in Vegas.

Belle is a manifester who uses her powers for evi...humor. She doesn't really qualify either.

There are lots of groups, psis, mages, even gadgeteers, who will insist the works of the others can be understood as expressions of their own pet area of expertise. The Mr. Fantastic expy in Jade 9 - Sit In for example. The two sides, (or at least representatives of them,) of the magic / psychic curriculum at the school as well.

I've read some Valdemar. I'd recommend you read this series of stories on its own, and avoid too many pre-conceived notions about how the world must work based on how it works in unrelated works.
Edit...or I'll start demanding 6-connection Portals to Fey's homeworld, where the Cool Elves drive Fast Cars and human mages cross paths with crime-fighting super-witches and get tutored by dragons. ...and we really wouldn't want to have the Authors throw us both out, now would we?

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-04T05:36:35-00:00

I've read all of them. Not particularly RECENTLY, but I've read all of them. Musicians and bards are different. Like... say the Offspring are musicians, while the Decemberists are bards (actually minstrels, but that's a different story). I'm not sure about this prophecy you're talking about.

Special effects are hardly illusions, in the same way that CGI isn't an illusion. They're not just fake, they're bad fakes, and good ones are rare enough to be nonexistant.

Belle uses ectoplasm to make illusions. Good or evil has nothing to do with it.

The Valdemar correlation was just the terminology relating psy gifts and magic ones. Because they ARE related, obviously, the how is just the uncertain one. I'm not saying that any of the way this universe works is remotely like it.

For one, there aren't any magic talking white horses going around and Choosing all of the people at the school.

Re: On Magic...

pedestrian — 2011-12-04T06:14:09-00:00

in "I'm a Freak" Hekate does a divination, which implies Razorback is "the bard". Furthermore, in searching for that, I ran across another reference. The Grove also refers to him as a bard in "Ill Winds 2"

Re: On Magic...

khade — 2011-12-04T06:38:56-00:00

Ectoplasm doesn't do illusions, everything it does is real, for a very niche amount of real. I think you might want to reread the Halloween storyline, it gives some examples of Bugs FX illusions, apparently impressive enough to scare jaded mutants.

Oh, and we've has a sort of conversation on illusions, how they work, and we came up with several different routes: influencing someone's mind, influencing their eyes, holograms, specters, there are tons of ways to do things, there is no one right way, and probably no single answer on what's going on.

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-05T00:40:16-00:00

I'll go through the stories again later, sometime when I have enough time to sit down for a few days and really read. Also, back at the top, there's a new question that I'd actually asked before but was hidden.

Re: On Magic...

Niknokitueu — 2011-12-05T10:54:13-00:00

Singer wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 00:40

I'll go through the stories again later, sometime when I have enough time to sit down for a few ~~days~~ weeks and really read. Also, back at the top, there's a new question that I'd actually asked before but was hidden.

Corrected that for you

As has been stated before, magic is magic.
The source of any ability can be varied. Eg illusions could be PSI (mental overriding of target's vision), manifestation (manifested matter called up by the mutant, that behaves either as wanted, or 'free willed'), hologram (devisor-created or gadgeteer-created, both can be very realistic), spirit (whether summoned by magic or generated by host), etc. If it is Magic in origin, it could still be a mental effect, a visual effect, created matter, summoned matter, pure magic energy, etc etc.

'Bard' in WU (Whateley Universe) is not a D&D magic-using singer. It is more closely thought of as a fanciful term for 'musician'.

As for shielding, it again depends on what is happening.
Most mental shields are designed to protect the mind from any form of mental coercion. Hence would work against PSI illusions, and against magical spells that create mental illusions. Would not work, however, against most of the other methods of illusion generation, as they do not directly affect the mind.

Mental shields can be created by many means. Phase is creating one baseline-style, by concentrating on something else. Fey can create types from several methods, both mental (to avoid seeing too much with her sight) and magical (cast a spell to stop Darrow's influencing her in one of the Boston brawls). PSI-users can create shields that effectively 'blank' their minds. Can also probably create 'static noise' shields, but this has not appeared in-canon, to my knowledge.

...And shields can be broken through or suppressed by a powerful-enough probe. Whilst this is quite easy on a baseline target, a mutant PSI who has a mind-shield knack would be correspondingly harder to bypass.

Hope this all helps.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-05T12:53:32-00:00

No, just days. I read really fast.

They're still more like minstrels than bards anyway. Bards have stable employment. And usually work for royalty. Plus the 'music' bards knew were stories surrounded in prose and made into poems to make them easier to remember.

Plus, I was asking more for magic music in particular. I know, the way I said it was kind of confusing, but I was asking about Magic Music, as opposed to bards.

Shielding information helps, thank you. Doesn't cover the later points, but those might be either theoretical at best or outright unheard of.

I wonder if it's possible to weave different kinds of shields together and layer them, stagger them, like with paper armor. Also probably theoretical, if even considered.

Oh, as a tangent - how permeable are shield, especially magical ones? Can you cast through your own shield, for example?

Re: On Magic...

Cockle — 2011-12-05T16:50:39-00:00

Singer wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 12:53

Oh, as a tangent - how permeable are shield, especially magical ones? Can you cast through your own shield, for example?

The only answer to that is going to be "it depends". If you're smart enough to design a magical shield with those characteristics, then sure. One might surmise that a shield with limited permeability might tend to be weaker than one which was absolutely impermeable. That permeability could be a flaw for a sufficiently skilled opponent to exploit. If you're better than the opposition, that's not an issue.

Re: On Magic...

Cockle — 2011-12-05T16:58:12-00:00

Niknokitueu wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 10:54

Mental shields can be created by many means. Phase is creating one baseline-style, by concentrating on something else.

He doesn't seem to be very good at that, according to his powers testing and Fubar.

When he resisted Solange, on first arriving at Whateley, I think that was more a case of recognising an alien thought and being able to reject it rather than actually block her ability. If she were sufficiently subtle Solange might be able to slip something past him. That was probably a mix of his general mental discipline and the Exemplar mental package.

Phase does seem to be better at keeping his thoughts under control, so a psychic eavesdropper isn't going to pick up anything other than what he's concentrating on at that moment: no deeper information.

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-05T17:21:52-00:00

Cockle wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 11:50

Singer wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 12:53

Oh, as a tangent - how permeable are shield, especially magical ones? Can you cast through your own shield, for example?

Hurray I figured it out. Quoting, I mean. Anyway.

In response to this, are there ways to design a shield with either an infinite power loop - one that not only absorbs the power of magical attacks smashed against it like a wave breaker but then uses it to power itself up even more, becoming more and more powerful as the enemy magician casts more and more powerful spells to take you out out of desperation?

Plus, the staggering shields are still a viable question - could they work, and how might they work?

Third, what about a shield that instead of simply blocking actually redirects the attack in question? Like the difference between Shell (in which you're still hit by the recoil of the magic shield blocking the spell) and Reflect in Final Fantasy?

Re: On Magic...

XaltatunOfAcheron — 2011-12-05T18:21:04-00:00

Cockle wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 09:58

Niknokitueu wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 10:54

Mental shields can be created by many means. Phase is creating one baseline-style, by concentrating on something else.

He doesn't seem to be very good at that, according to his powers testing and Fubar.

That's not really correct.

Ayla8.5

As I started to walk off, he added, "By the way, the answer's 'Brainteaser'."

For a moment, I didn't know what he was talking about, and then it hit me. His original codename. So he had been reading my mind again. Damnit!

He smirked, "But you're doing better on the psychic blocking. Really. Don't worry about it. If you ever get to the point where you can successfully block me when I'm really trying without using magic, I mean you'll be doing better than 99% of the psychics I know."

This doesn't mean he's doing badly at it. It means he's not got a really top-of-the-line shield.

Xaltatun

Re: On Magic...

dpragan — 2011-12-05T19:35:22-00:00

Does anyone know the practical limits on transformation spells?

(This is putting aside magical disasters and Class X intrusions)

Not measured in Wiz, since that refers to Mana absorption rather than skill.

Same Gender
Opposite Gender/Custom Mixed-Gender
Animal of rough size comparison
Animal of vastly different size comparison
into an inanimate object
back from an inanimate object
Something Mystical in origin
Something Class X in origin

Re: On Magic...

Sir Lee — 2011-12-06T00:27:03-00:00

XaltatunOfAcheron wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 16:21

This doesn't mean he's doing badly at it. It means he's not got a really top-of-the-line shield.

Yes. And I remember Ayla figuring out a basic "mind mine," consisting basically in adapting the standard technique of thinking about uninteresting things like accounting... by replaying Brass Monkey songs in his head. I think he managed to kick out even Fubar with that. Although it wouldn't work if, say, Antenna got psychic powers.

Re: On Magic...

pedestrian — 2011-12-06T02:43:06-00:00

To respond to the last, and revisit an earlier reference.

"Istanbul, was once Constanople,
now it's Istanbul, was once Constanople,
now it's Istanbul, was once Constanople,
now it's Istanbul, (istanbull, istanbulll)

Even Old New York, was Once New Ansterdam..."

Re: On Magic...

Singer — 2011-12-06T03:19:32-00:00

pedestrian wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 21:43

Why they changed it I can't say - People just like it better that waaaay!~

Although i know why they changed New Amsterdam to New York...

Re: On Magic...

Cockle — 2011-12-06T14:02:10-00:00

XaltatunOfAcheron wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 18:21

Cockle wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 09:58

He doesn't seem to be very good at that, according to his powers testing and Fubar.

That's not really correct.

Ayla8.5

As I started to walk off, he added, "By the way, the answer's 'Brainteaser'."

This doesn't mean he's doing badly at it. It means he's not got a really top-of-the-line shield.

OK. He's getting better, then. When he came to Whateley he certainly wasn't very good according to the powers testing people, and Louis.

I wonder what made the difference? Is it just practice, or the effect of living with fairy glamours and demonic auras? Maybe surviving Xmas?

Re: On Magic...

XaltatunOfAcheron — 2011-12-06T15:01:20-00:00

Cockle wrote on Tue, 06 December 2011 07:02

XaltatunOfAcheron wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 18:21

Cockle wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 09:58

He doesn't seem to be very good at that, according to his powers testing and Fubar.

That's not really correct.

Ayla8.5

As I started to walk off, he added, "By the way, the answer's 'Brainteaser'."

This doesn't mean he's doing badly at it. It means he's not got a really top-of-the-line shield.

Some or all of the above. When he came to Whateley he was already good enough to block out Tansy. Since then he's been blocking out Fey, Sara and the Fury Twins on a regular basis. Not to mention occasional bouts with the Aphrodite stand-in and Imperious. That, however, all has to do with resisting the effects of attempts to manipulate his mind and emotions. On the pure mind-reading side he's had a couple of bouts with Sahar trying to block her out.

The fact that he needs more work to be able to block out Fubar simply means he's human.

Xaltatun

Re: On Magic...

Sir Lee — 2011-12-06T15:33:40-00:00

XaltatunOfAcheron wrote on Tue, 06 December 2011 13:01

Not to mention he survived Vowel-Handicapped Demon.

Re: On Magic...

Kristin Darken — 2011-12-08T08:20:57-00:00

I think the key point that you're missing in the discussion of Bards is that the path to being a 'traditional' Bard is a long one. It was usually broken into 3 periods, each 7 years in length. Each with a specific means of looking at both the music and its use in performing magick.

But where in that 21 year training period do you consider the person a Bard? They're technically an apprentice Bard from the moment they set foot on that path. Most people aren't likely to call someone by their craft-name/title until they reach Journeyman status... but that's all relative. To the 'commoner,' any official tie to a craft is sufficient to warrant recognition in a structured hierarchy, where crafters of any status are considered more important than any serf or freeman.

As to the specifics of the Whateley Universe... you have to remember that Prophecy is inherently surreal. It's an interpretation of facts that aren't exactly detailed... but make sense in relation to the moment when it actually happens. In that case, calling the Outcasts Bards... may make no sense whatever in the 'now' of the WU. It's only by looking at the Prophecy and character development from a reader perspective that it's being interpreted that way anyway. Details as the timeline progresses may fill in in such a way that it makes it clear (when it happens) that the Outcasts were exactly what it was talking about... or it may turn out that it means something entirely different.

But... as far as classifications go.. there's no such thing as a Bard in the WU. But there are lots of elements that could go together in such a way that a Bard could exist. The simplest 'explanation' would simply be someone who followed the traditional path to being a Bard... they wouldn't have to be a mutant to do it. But being a mutant with a Wiz talent would make being a Bard much simpler.

Re: On Magic...

a--d — 2012-03-14T00:20:03-00:00

On Transformation Magic...
I've heard that transformation magic in D&D is extremely useful and Author ShaperV's story, "Time Braid" showed an example of using something similar which allowed the main character to shift themselves into a stronger version of their own body while a secondary character went farther with it to become a Jimmy T type shapeshifter during a sparring session.

Questions
Since the ability to alter yourself or others is capable of being so useful, how limited is it in the Whateley Universe when done using magic?

Are all transformations extremely dangerous or does it depend on the degree of change attempted?
Wo/Man to Wo/Man, enhanced bone/musculature, gills, heightened senses, removal of fingerprints, etc.?

If Bits are the reason transformation magic is dangerous how common are they suspected to be?
And if Bits are the reason transformation magic is dangerous, would someone without a Bit be able to use it with only the inherent risks of attempting to rearrange your internal organs/systems/etc. without actually understanding what you're doing?

Reason
Was wondering how my D&D character would have to change in order to fit into the Whateley Universe and realized their back story of having been changed into the opposite sex by magic would need to be scrapped if there was no way around the high risks apparently imposed by attempts to use or the accidental use of transformation magic.
Not to mention their attempts at researching how to recreate the event for widespread, public use.

Re: On Magic...

Diane Castle — 2012-03-14T03:46:39-00:00

a--d wrote on Tue, 13 March 2012 17:20

We have certainly shown devises that have transformed people into the opposite sex: Dr. Pygmalion transformed a number of young boys before Delta spike; Jobe's drow serum; Spark's turning Reach into a girl (at least a lot of the time)... So it's possible to do with magic.

However, we also know that if there's a BIT, then doing a transformation might be fraught with peril. If there's GSD, the same rules are assumed to apply.

How about if your character starts out without a BIT and gets transformed? Delta Spike wasn't an Exemplar, but now she's a pseudo-Exemplar (with strength, toughness, quickness, and The Most Common Superpower) and pseudo-Energizer (with lightning blasts). So she has the powers of Exemplars and Energizers without actually being either.

The BIT is very important, if Carmilla is correct. If you have to have enough power to change the BIT in all the dimensions it bleeds into, then you might need phenomenal amounts of power, and you *might* attract the attention of something that lives in one of those far dimensions. This would be bad.

Diane

Re: On Magic...

Nicky82 — 2012-03-14T09:29:57-00:00

I would like to point out that there is a case of a guy turned into a girl by magic in Canon: Folder.

Which makes me wonder why Mega Girl hasn't been turned into a real girl yet, she isn't an exemplar, she isn't a Shifter or a regenerator either and she has no GSD, Fey should be able to do it.

Re: On Magic...

Sojiro — 2012-03-14T11:35:01-00:00

"Doable" doesn't equate "easy" or even "safe".
Megagirl's shell will work and will make her into the total babe she want to be. No reason to take crazy risks.

Re: On Magic...

Cockle — 2012-03-14T12:50:11-00:00

Diane Castle wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 03:46

The BIT is very important, if Carmilla is correct. If you have to have enough power to change the BIT in all the dimensions it bleeds into, then you might need phenomenal amounts of power, and you *might* attract the attention of something that lives in one of those far dimensions. This would be bad.

Someone really should point this out to Phase, seeing as he's already attracted the attention of one extra-dimensional nightmare.

Re: On Magic...

Nicky82 — 2012-03-14T14:20:14-00:00

Sojiro wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 12:35

"Doable" doesn't equate "easy" or even "safe".
Megagirl's shell will work and will make her into the total babe she want to be. No reason to take crazy risks.

It might take her years to female enough to have sex, I would think that giving her a normal life as soon as possible has its definite advantages.

Re: On Magic...

Cockle — 2012-03-14T15:02:51-00:00

Nicky82 wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 14:20

Sojiro wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 12:35

"Doable" doesn't equate "easy" or even "safe".
Megagirl's shell will work and will make her into the total babe she want to be. No reason to take crazy risks.

It might take her years to female enough to have sex, I would think that giving her a normal life as soon as possible has its definite advantages.

She's a kid. She probably oughtn't to be having sex any time soon. She might not even be that interested in it yet.

As it stands, she can do all the girly stuff she wants to. Her big stumbling block appears to be cash rather than her body.

Re: On Magic...

awjs — 2012-03-14T16:57:31-00:00

Cockle wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 10:02

Nicky82 wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 14:20

Sojiro wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 12:35

"Doable" doesn't equate "easy" or even "safe".
Megagirl's shell will work and will make her into the total babe she want to be. No reason to take crazy risks.

It might take her years to female enough to have sex, I would think that giving her a normal life as soon as possible has its definite advantages.

I think she is interested in sex.
Remember that date she got from working Ayla Golden Kids party? Afterwards, it turns out that the guy wanted to go further than kissing and got upset when she said no (which makes him a total jackass IMO). When explaining it to Ayla, she said something along the lines of "It's not like I don't want to, it's that I can't! At least not for a few years, but I can't tell him that!" [not an exact quote, just from memory]

Sorry if this is just me nitpicking and not helping.

Re: On Magic...

Nicky82 — 2012-03-14T19:03:47-00:00

awjs wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 17:57

Cockle wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 10:02

Nicky82 wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 14:20

Sojiro wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 12:35

"Doable" doesn't equate "easy" or even "safe".
Megagirl's shell will work and will make her into the total babe she want to be. No reason to take crazy risks.

It might take her years to female enough to have sex, I would think that giving her a normal life as soon as possible has its definite advantages.

It's in the 4th chapter of the Birthday Brawl:

Ayla and the Birthday Brawl
CHAPTER 4 The Legend of Cambel and Triamond, or of Friendship

I checked my watch, and I still had a few minutes. So I went upstairs and checked on Marty and Elaine. I hardly finished my knock when Marty was flying over and yanking the door open. Her face fell when she saw it was just me.

I said, "Wow, you sure know how to make a guy feel appreciated around here."

Marty miserably muttered, "C'mon in." She put a huge pout on her face, floated back over to her bed, and dropped onto the bedspread. She had a book open, but she wasn't really paying much attention to it.

Elaine turned from where she was working on the harness of her uniform. Again. "She's kind of upset. Her date went real well, right up until she didn't want to put out..."

"Oh, I wanted to," Marty fussed, "But it's not like I can yet!"

Re: On Magic...

Cockle — 2012-03-14T19:21:57-00:00

awjs wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 16:57

Cockle wrote on Wed, 14 March 2012 10:02

I think she is interested in sex.

So she is.
So maybe it's not a bad thing that she can't just yet.

Re: On Magic...

curiousreader — 2012-04-10T00:42:14-00:00

Hello everyone, I hope that you all had a nice weekend.

A question flouted through my head this weekend and I had to ask for clarification.

How powerful does a wizard have to be to set off a 7.5 earthquake, an f4 tornado, a volcano and cause a Tsunami at the same time?

Are we talking full on dark wizard or mythos, or can say wiz-3 pull something like this off with enough prep time?

Also if he where caught setting these things off, how much prison time do you think he would be looking at?

20 to life with no possibility for parole?

The death penalty?

or 40 years with the option for parole in 20?

One more for the road. What charges would you bring on this guy? Wanton destruction of property? Malevolent use of magical abilities? How about Environmental destruction to the area and communities?

Thanks for the advice and as always much appreciated.

Cheers

Re: On Magic...

Diane Castle — 2012-04-10T01:01:26-00:00

curiousreader wrote on Mon, 09 April 2012 17:42

[1] How powerful does the Wizard have to be? He'd have to be outside of Whateley canon. Maybe Nikki could do it if Aunghadhail was running things, and she didn't mind destroying several large ecosystems or entire biomes in the process. There's a lot of energy involved in each of your conditions, and that energy has to come from *somewhere*. You can't just stand up and shout "odanrot hcnual" like some non-Whateley characters.

[2] Death penalty. We're talking mass murder on a huge scale. Unfortunately, there would be no trial, because you'd have to sick several of the top superhero teams of the Whateley Universe on said badguy with orders to pull no punches. Either the badguy would get killed in the ensuing fight, or else all the superhero teams would. If the badguy won, launching nuclear missiles would probably be the next step.

Diane

Re: On Magic...

Laudator — 2012-04-10T02:17:09-00:00

curiousreader wrote on Tue, 10 April 2012 01:42

How powerful does a wizard have to be to set off a 7.5 earthquake, an f4 tornado, a volcano and cause a Tsunami at the same time?

Some brief googling suggests that all of those could be in the megatons of TNT bracket, or even higher.

Most likely smaller than Tsar Bomba, but ounces to pounds of antimatter, if I've done the conversions right.

Re: On Magic...

curiousreader — 2012-04-10T02:51:32-00:00

HHHmmm then if he can't do all three, could he pull off one of then?

Here is something to make this a more interesting scenario, lets make him a wiz-5 with a year prep time, in advance, and only one superhero in his trail.

Re: On Magic...

khade — 2012-04-10T04:27:36-00:00

Interestingly, I think the Volcano would be the easiest. Though it would be very very hard still and would have to be in places where volcanoes are likely to be, unless they put a ton of power into it,

With a few years to work on it, thorough knowledge of geology and earth processes, the earthquake could be doable, just encourage a slip in the right place, once again, limited to places with fault-lines, active would be easier but probably do less damage, inactive would be much harder but would be utterly devastating.

With a few years to work on it, thorough knowledge of meteorology and other assorted weather sciences, someone could potentially cause massive storms without undue energy usage, , but they'd need to be an absolute expert on weather patterns. Again, it would be much easier but less devastating in a place where those weather patterns are.

I think weather would be the hardest.

Re: On Magic...

Diane Castle — 2012-04-10T04:34:34-00:00

curiousreader wrote on Mon, 09 April 2012 19:51

Then I would say yes, assuming he has a magical way of collecting all that Essence and storing it. Call it... the Energizer Were-Rabbit.

365 days of steady Essence drawing into magical batteries around the target site? That's a LOT of power to have on hand. Then use an already building thunderstorm as your base to create the tornado(s) with all that Essence.

In theory, a small quake could *possibly* be done solely with fracking equipment. The size of a quake from fracking is arguable, but it's generally believed that fracking in some places has already caused 2.0 and 3.0 quakes. So a year spent massaging a fault line, magically keeping it from any slipping that might relieve the pressure, then all at once you hit the fault line with a year's worth of Essence designed to make the two sides of the fault line 'slippery' for a few seconds. Boom.

So, yeah. Give it a year's serious prep and the right kinds of spells, and I'd say it's possible. Useful? Maybe not. "I've unleashed the power of a tornado! And... MY TRUCK!!!!"

Diane

Re: On Magic...

Laudator — 2012-04-10T18:19:12-00:00

I'd also guess that it would be much easier to set off an existing volcano (evidence for that with Dr. Dad, as I recall) or trigger an existing earthquake fault(see also tsunami) or to steer existing weather-systems than to create them from whole cloth, since if you're 'just' triggering or steering, then nearly all of the energy is already there. The energy requirements I quoted before would be for creating out of nothing.

Re: On Magic...

Glimmervoid — 2012-04-10T19:23:47-00:00

Laudator wrote on Tue, 10 April 2012 19:19

How about the Granny Weatherwax method? Wait for a natural earthquake/volcano/etc then go TV and claim you caused it. Buy some devisor communication hijacking equipment, transmit in the panicked aftermath and you might get enough people to believe you that they won't care when some scientist says it was natural six months later (assume they could even tell something like that anyway).

Re: On Magic...

rubberjohn — 2012-04-11T00:29:42-00:00

I seem to remember an item in a weekly science program, probably back in the seventies or early eighties, that geologists were becoming increasingly concerned about the lack of major earthquakes along the San Andreas fault.

If I recall correctly they were due to begin small scale experiments in the hopes of easing the build up of tension along the fault by pumping chemical 'Mud', similar to that used in drilling operations, into the fault to attempt to lubricate the joint between the opposing plates. It was speculated that, if the experiment worked as intended, the tension between the plates would be eased in a series of harmless, minor, earthquakes rather than in one large, very destructive, earthquake such as the one that devastated San Francisco in 1906.

I think it was reckoned at that time that the plates should have drifted somewhere in the region of six feet, relative to each other, and there was considerable concern that the experiment might actually trigger 'The Big One' instead of easing the problem in a controlled manner.

I don't recall ever hearing any further reports as to whether the experiment went ahead, or whether there was any result either way if it did, but it strikes me that a fairly powerful mage might be able to use this phenomenon to their advantage if they wanted to trigger an earthquake and, potentially, a Tsunami. Even if the mage was not actually powerful enough to trigger the full release of the San Andreas the threat alone would be enough to cause panic in the population.

As Alistair MacLean used the term 'Goodbye California' for the plot and title of one of his books I understand it is a very real fear that lurks in the background of most residents of that State that, one day, the San Andreas will really let rip and dump half of California into the ocean.

John.

Re: On Magic...

amratner — 2012-04-11T07:57:13-00:00

rubberjohn wrote on Tue, 10 April 2012 20:29

As Alistair MacLean used the term 'Goodbye California' for the plot and title of one of his books I understand it is a very real fear that lurks in the background of most residents of that State that, one day, the San Andreas will really let rip and dump half of California into the ocean.
John.

Well, that won't happen. The San Andreas fault is moving the coast north, not down.
In a few million years the area of California west of the fault will be an island off the coast of Oregon, but is will not be under water.

Re: On Magic...

rubberjohn — 2012-04-12T00:29:03-00:00

Well it is quite a while since I last read the book and, as always with a fictional novel, there is always room for 'Artistic License' on the part of the author.

John.

Re: On Magic...

wyrm — 2012-04-15T22:59:27-00:00

curiousreader wrote on Tue, 10 April 2012 01:42

How powerful does a wizard have to be to set off a 7.5 earthquake, an f4 tornado, a volcano and cause a Tsunami at the same time?

It depends. If the energy already exists as potential energy, and just needs to be released, then a comparatively 'small' event could release it.

Faults can build up gigatonnes of energy "within" the fault. Since 1923 (The Great Kanto earthquake) energy has built up in the faults off the coast of Japan that could produce a mag 8 quake, a tsunami and (possibly) trigger a dormant volcano to re-activate. It might not take much energy to trigger the quake.

Elsewhere, in the Canaries, a LARGE chunk of the active Cumbre Vieja volcano on La Palma is poised to slip into the Atlantic - This could create a Tsunami reaching the US.

In both these cases, a small amount of energy could cause the release of a massive amount of potential energy. In the case of the Canaries, the amount of energy necessary to *start* the landslip might be very small, but (once it starts), 500 km^^3 of rock falls over 2 kilometres. That's a *lot* of energy released.

However, if there's no potential energy to be released, then forget it.

Re: On Magic...

Cockle — 2012-04-16T13:05:45-00:00

I think there's also an issue of control.

Arguably, setting off something in a fault zone might be relatively simple, but it'd be very difficult to control exactly what happened next. There was a tsunami warning in the Indian Ocean recently following a large quake, but nothing actually came of it. I could see that being an issue for any attempt at controlling seismic events.

For tornados, I imagine setting up the appropriate weather patterns in, say, Oklahoma would be straightforward, (given a bit of time to work on it). Getting a violent tornado to hit a specific town would be much harder. Getting a violent tornado to appear in an area not normally prone to tornados would be extremely difficult.

Re: On Magic...

a--d — 2012-04-20T03:37:09-00:00

What about causing a chain of smaller earthquakes that rebound off each other or domino into something stronger via timing?

Control might not be such an issue then. Except in the matter of not hitting places.

Re: On Magic...

Cockle — 2012-04-21T12:03:13-00:00

The more little steps you take, the greater the chance you end up with a chaotic system with wildly unpredictable results. All your little quakes might end up neutralising each other. Or instead of destroying San Francisco you end up setting off Mount Shasta, (which might well affect San Francisco).

Re: On Magic...

Nicky82 — 2012-04-21T16:11:17-00:00

There is also the problem of proper timing and exact locations in which executing the rituals, also as Cockle pointed out the more complex the scheme becomes the greater are the chances of getting a spanner in the works, from something in the ground that screws the propagation of the Sisma to ritual teams being busted by authorities.

There is also the question about what kind of mess is going to cause on the astral plane, one can't pull a Great Ghost Dance without consequences.

Re: On Magic...

khade — 2012-04-22T02:21:34-00:00

Considering magic verifiably works in this world, Does the Ghost Dance actually do what it's supposed to? And assuming it does, why don't other groups adopt it, as invisible armor would be very useful.

Re: On Magic...

Nicky82 — 2012-04-25T17:44:34-00:00

khade wrote on Sun, 22 April 2012 04:21

The Great Ghost Dance I was refering to is part of Shadowrun's setting background, basically it's like this:

The year is 2012, the mayan calendar proves to be acccurate and there's the transition from the 5th to the 6th world, a.k.a. magic returns to the world, at the time there were problems between the USA and the native americans as in the Corporate World that backs the former wants to exploit the resources of the tribal land of the latter, the USA start strongarming the natives out of their land, a group of the restance highjackes a missile station trying to get the attenction of the public opinion, it's successful but in a totally wrong way as someone pushes the wrong button and a missile goes off, the USA answer with concentration camps. Then magic returns and the shamen break the Natives out of the camps and issue a cease and desist message to the goverment threating to unleash magical retribution if the government didn't comply, naturally nobody has figured out that magic is really back and the answer is sending the army in, hence the Great Ghost Dance begins unleashing natural disasters (mostly vulcanoes going off) on the USA, the thing kept going on this way for a while until the government realized in shock that magic existed for real and they weren't prepared to fight it (to be noted, many of the shamen that performed the Dance died in the process, had the government been a little slower in the uptake it might have won the war because too many shamen were dead to keep it going), which results in the natives gaining a good chunk of what was the USA.

Being Shadowrun an hybrid between Cyberpunk and Urban Fantasy things devolve into a Crapsack World with corporations getting extraterritoriality and waging shadow wars against each other, rampant racism (mostly toward the new races that manifested with the return of magic), a totally disfunctional legal system that didn't recognize your existance unless you had a System Identification Number (with many being purposely being left out, read racism above, which is hereditary because if you don't exist you can't have children) which means that you can't legally work or do anything and good luck pressing charges for crimes committed against you (BTW, not having a SIN is a crime, you can still be arrested, it will result in recing a Criminal SIN which is pretty much of the worst of both having and not having a SIN due severely reduced civil rights and being branded as a criminal). Can things get worse? Of course! The settings have Eldritch Abominations too, as the level of mana goes up and down as part of it's natural cycle it reaches a point that lets the Eldritch Abominations (called the Horrors) to get into our world and guess what.... working really powerfull magics can result in an inrease of the local mana level and the Great Ghost Dance caused a spike big enough that was about to be used by the Horrors as bridge to get into the world ahead of time.

That is what I was refering, pulling something like that in WU might result in awakenenig a seeling GOO or letting loose something best left alone, anyone who has studied magic enough to pull it off should know better than doing it.

As for using the Ghost Dance as "invisible armor".... I don't understand what you are trying to say but the Dance is just magic as nuclear deterrent.

Re: On Magic...

khade — 2012-04-25T19:15:14-00:00

I was thinking of this. Specifically, the ritual that the Sioux were doing at Wounded Knee. I guess it wouldn't have been invisible armor, it was supposed to imbue their ghost shirts with the power to repel bullets.

Re: On Magic...

nekoali — 2012-04-25T19:16:01-00:00

The Ghost Dance wouldn't be possible in the Whateley verse as it is an uber-deus ex machina even in the Shadowrun universe. That and the fact that the cost of the Ghost Dance was the hundreds or thousands of Native Americans that literally danced themselves to death over a number of days, giving up all their energy to power it. And at a time when magic was at a great high, since it was just returning with the turn of the Age.

How it protected the Native Americans who just walked out of the concentration camps isn't really gone into. They are just described as walking away from them and bullets not being able to touch them.

And the Ghost dance isn't an armor spell, there are plenty of those. The protection effect was only a minor side effect. Most of the energy went into blowing the tops of three major volcanoes in Washington state to force the UCAS into giving them a separate nation and stopping the persecution and concentration camps. In current Shadowrun days the fact that they have the knowledge to do it again is a sort of 'nuclear deterrent' keeping the NAN separate and UCAS forces mostly out of their borders.

Re: On Magic...

Nicky82 — 2012-04-25T21:40:57-00:00

khade wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 21:15

Forcefields are not unkown in WU, they can come from magic, psi, tecnology, mutant powers, etc., armies would use reproducible technology than magic to protect their units, for purely practical reasons.

nekoali wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 21:16

The Great Ghost Dance was a massive piece of ritual sorcery meant to wreck havok on the USA, the protection that the one that performed it had was due the fact that:

The USA Army had no idea where they were doing it
The havok raised played hob with climate making spysats and drones ineffective
The Army was caught flat footed and rendered a sitting duck

Thanks for this factors the armed guards protecting the dancers were more than enough.