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Gender Tease [message #9231] Sun, 15 July 2007 21:10 Go to next message
Motley  is currently offline Motley
Messages: 289
Registered: January 2005
Location: I get to live with Renae,...

Which pronoun set do you prefer?[ 48 vote(s) ]
1.Ey/Eir 2 / 4%
2.They/Them 11 / 23%
3.Sie/Hir 5 / 10%
4.Pick a Side 30 / 63%

Ok, I threatened to do it. Don't say I didn't warn you! :twisted:

***
(Ey/Em)

“But I have nothing to wear!” Ey whined at Hank in the men’s restroom the next morning. Ey looked into the mirror, scowling at eir reflection.

“I’m sure someone around here has shoes you can borrow,” he reasoned. Ey looked down at eir huge feet. Coarse hair clung to the tops, making em think of hobbits. “Look at the bright side, at least you’re human today.” He gave em a grin that would have had em giggling and running away in a different time and place. For now, well, he was eir roomate. Ey was more in need of friends than boyfriends, not that he offered, and well, he wasn’t the only exemplar strutting around partly naked in the restroom that morning, em included, though ey wasn’t much to look at.

(They/Them)

“Homo maybe, but sapiens I’m not,” They growled with their unnaturally low voice. They poked at their heavy brow ridges and bushy eyebrows, as if that would make them shrink faster. Their jaw was still slightly elongated and their stocky body looked strong enough to crush half the boys in the restroom. The shaggy cinnamon colored hair on their head was slowly giving way to their natural black color and texture. It still bore the uneven white streak, and their eyes were still a warm yellow gold. Those traits always stayed fixed no matter what else changed. Overnight, they’d gone from werebear to neanderthal as their body took its own sweet time about getting itself back to what they’d come to think of as normal. They pouted at their reflection as they envied normal teenagers who only had to deal with acne.

Hank gave them an odd smirk. They heard a chuckle off to their right too. “I’m not touching that one,” he told me.

They growled, their voice still sounding lower than they liked. They leaned in to the mirror, lifting their lip to see that their long bear teeth were still in place.

(Sie/Hir)

“My, what big teeth you have!” said the boy next to hir on the other side from Hank. Sie thought sie remembered seeing him when sie first came to Poe. His blonde hair, bright blue eyes, cute freckled nose and winning smile caught hir attention. Sie still didn’t know his name. “Now your line is…” he gestured dramatically. Was he trying to hit on hir? Empathic senses said ‘yes.’

Looking like this? Was he nuts? Sie turned back to the mirror, getting a good look at the pained expression on hir own brutish and prehistoric face. “Oh, fuck me,” sie said quietly.

(Pick a side - he, because Jamie happens to be leaning that way at the time)

“Not the answer I was expecting, but it’ll do,” he replied cheerfully. He didn’t even look. Instead he closed his eyes and leaned forward until he could tap his head against the mirror.

“Those do break you know,” Hank reminded him, around a mouth full of toothpaste. He gestured at the mirror with his toothbrush. After knocking himself out cold against the trunk of a tree the previous day, he couldn’t blame Hank for the warning, but then he hadn’t exactly been feeling like himself.


Hmmm....I need a new sig.
Gender Tease [message #9281] Mon, 16 July 2007 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nobodez  is currently offline nobodez
Messages: 138
Registered: July 2005
Location: Denver, CO

i chose pick a side, mainly because I hadn't researched the Gender Neutral Pronouns available.

Upon further research, although it's a bit difficult to grok, at least initially, the Spivak would work best, that's the singlular they without the 'th'.

He/She/Ey
Him/Her/Em
His/Her/Eir
His/Hers/Eirs
Himself/Herself/Emself

Actually, you may want to with with a modified Spivak, and make it "he/she/e".


Joseph Scharfenberg

Sent from my iPad/iMac
Gender Tease [message #9284] Tue, 17 July 2007 01:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Motley  is currently offline Motley
Messages: 289
Registered: January 2005
Location: I get to live with Renae,...
Yeah, some people do go with E instead of Ey. My gripe with it is that spoken out loud there's not much difference between E and He. Of course you get that with Em and Him too. You just can't win!


Hmmm....I need a new sig.
Gender Tease [message #9286] Tue, 17 July 2007 04:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eddie  is currently offline eddie
Messages: 302
Registered: February 2005
Location: Chesterfield Derbyshire E...

Why not add a Consonant such as Z or Q in front of Ey etc. that would obviate the similar sounding of Em him and so on.

Eddie
Gender Tease [message #9288] Tue, 17 July 2007 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
IronOx  is currently offline IronOx
Messages: 67
Registered: August 2005
Location: NY
None of the above. Too many possible variations and too many potential pitfalls. If I want to know the individual, I'll learn their name and use it. If I don't want to know them, it really doesn't matter. And no way am I in favor of anything that ADDS complications - I gave up on German mostly because I couldn't deal with all the different pronouns

In truth I doubt any of the proposed pronouns will make it into general usage. The issue may becomes so societally widespread that a need is seen by the "individual in the street", and we move to a single genderless pronoun for everyone (works for me). However I suspect that, as with most English changes, it will arrive from below, not from above, and be less effort, not more, to speak.
Current Usage in the Real World [message #9289] Tue, 17 July 2007 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XaltatunOfAcheron  is currently offline XaltatunOfAcheron
Messages: 1931
Registered: July 2005
Location: Atlantis
IronOx

None of the above. Too many possible variations and too many potential pitfalls. If I want to know the individual, I'll learn their name and use it. If I don't want to know them, it really doesn't matter. And no way am I in favor of anything that ADDS complications - I gave up on German mostly because I couldn't deal with all the different pronouns

In truth I doubt any of the proposed pronouns will make it into general usage. The issue may becomes so societally widespread that a need is seen by the "individual in the street", and we move to a single genderless pronoun for everyone (works for me). However I suspect that, as with most English changes, it will arrive from below, not from above, and be less effort, not more, to speak.


That's essentially my position. In fact, the man in the street is speaking, and what he's saying is that them and theirs are perfectly acceptable as 3rd person singular pronouns. It's nowhere near universal, but if you want some ammunition it's been discussed on Language Log a number of times, with quotes from where Shakespeare and the King James Bible use it. You can hardly get more authoritative than that! (Of course, Language Log likes to beat prescriptivists over the head. It's great fun showing where they're speaking out of their asses on usage.)

The key question, for me at least, is this: what's the usage in the universe in question. I've mentioned Weber's Honorverse before. The Whateleyverse looks like it has the same usage as the Real World. That means that you've got to be sensitive to how each character uses the 3rd person singular for an unspecified person whose gender is irrelevant. This is important in writing dialog!

By the way; third person pronouns aren't the only place where gender shows up. Nouns of occupation are another. We have the -er and -ess endings from French, and also the Germanic habit of appending a noun that specifies both sex and age: goosegirl, mailman, washerwoman (which does both!) That's another dialog characterization issue: different people are going to substitute words with -er endings for the german derived words with -man, -woman, -girl, -boy endings.

Xaltatun


Oxymoron: Jumbo Shrimp
Impossible: Sustainable Growth
Gender Tease [message #9297] Tue, 17 July 2007 22:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ampws  is currently offline ampws
Messages: 84
Registered: June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
I seem to remember that there was a sci-fi story in the 70's were one of the characters had an alien friend who was a cyclical hermaphrodite. His race had problems with gender distinctions in the human language so adopted the generic term 've' that's V.E.
VE [message #9302] Wed, 18 July 2007 01:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BekDCorvin  is currently offline BekDCorvin
Messages: 954
Registered: August 2005
Location: State of Confusion

Jo Clayton also used 'Ve' as a pronoun for a race of hermaphroditic sentient plants. Ve was the personal, Ves was the possessive.

And I STILL thought that it was pushing it. Still, Clayton's a great, innovative writer who doesn't get anywhere near the press of lesser talents.


To Be, or Not to Be; this is a question?
Gender Tease [message #9309] Wed, 18 July 2007 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eddie  is currently offline eddie
Messages: 302
Registered: February 2005
Location: Chesterfield Derbyshire E...

I agree with you Bek.It's a pity she is no longer with us.

Eddie
Gender Tease [message #9315] Wed, 18 July 2007 09:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
IronOx  is currently offline IronOx
Messages: 67
Registered: August 2005
Location: NY
I recently reread Sheri Tepper's "The Fresco", saw the ve usage and wondered where it came from.

Jo Clayton is definitely missed. The detailed societies she created (and borrowed - recognized a few things from Anthro) really made clear that "we're not in Kansas anymore" while showing the members of decidedly different societies and races were still people, and comprehensible and sympathetic as such.
Gender Tease [message #9343] Thu, 19 July 2007 21:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Motley  is currently offline Motley
Messages: 289
Registered: January 2005
Location: I get to live with Renae,...
Honestly, I have trouble using any of the new words myself. But it still doesn't satisfactorily answer the question of how the heck to write Heyoka in the third person. Personally, I don't like any of the options.

Jamie is not a multiple personality, though you might wonder at times, so I don't like using 'them.' In true neutral form, which is Jamie's natural state, 'pick a side' is misleading. Generally, the only people who refer to Jamie as 'it' are enemies. And the new words are hard to get used to using, reading, or hearing.

I will continue writing in first person because that's the easiest way to get around it. The other authors will just have to suffer with indecision. Though the whole topic gives me ideas for playing around with how other characters deal with the issue.


Hmmm....I need a new sig.
Gender Tease [message #9345] Thu, 19 July 2007 23:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Warren  is currently offline Warren
Messages: 1560
Registered: January 2005
Location: Wet wonderful Washington

Well, I personally would go with Jimmy T's method. Go with what ever gender they wake up with.


Sometimes writing with geeks is like eating Jello with a chainsaw. Interesting but painful.
Gender Tease [message #9363] Fri, 20 July 2007 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babs  is currently offline Babs
Messages: 640
Registered: January 2005
Location: Left coast
Motley

The other authors will just have to suffer with indecision.
My personal answer? Something like the following:

Jade licked her popsicle. "My problem with gender is I have too strong a preference. And a mismatch, you know?"

Jamie had a popsicle too, and paused to give it a slow lick. "That's where I've got the advantage," came the calm reply. "I like 'em both. So I can go with the flow, whatever the flavor of the day is."

Jade peered suspiciously at her friend. "I should probably hate you. Or be really envious."

Jamie shrugged. "Sorry. You can't all be this lucky."

Jade inspected her popsicle. Almost... "So, since you're both, you must have tried it both ways. Which is best?"

The shaman shrugged. "Has more to do with the partners and surroundings. Sometimes the props. There was that time that Sara tried to use all her tentacles."

"Oh, the octopus tank at the aquarium?"

"That's right. I'm surprised we didn't get arrested for that."

Jade nodded thoughtfully. "I remember. It got judged 'freedom of religion.' What else?"

The mischievous amerind gave a final lick to the frozen treat. "Well, of course, props can be used for either gender."

"True," Jade agreed. Then she looked up to the rest of the team. "You got a good hold on Nikki?"

"Any ... day ... now," Toni said, straining.

The small girl smiled. "Your popsicle ready, Jamie?"

"Sure is."

Nikki squirmed desperately. "Guys, I'm not sure this is a good idea! Guys! I... OH MY GOD!"




See? The constructions are a bit awkward, but I never resort to any of the methods from the poll. Oh, and don't worry. Afterward, Nikki got a much more pleasant backrub. (Jeez, what did you think I was talking about?)
Gender Tease [message #9376] Fri, 20 July 2007 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bladedancer  is currently offline Bladedancer
Messages: 1164
Registered: January 2005
Location: Tennessee

That was wrong in so many ways I have no idea how to protest.


"...or I swear by my pretty floral bonnet that I will end you." Captain Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly.

My LJ name is poetheather. Come, read, enjoy?
Gender Neutral ... terms. [message #9380] Fri, 20 July 2007 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
XaltatunOfAcheron  is currently offline XaltatunOfAcheron
Messages: 1931
Registered: July 2005
Location: Atlantis
Babs

Motley

The other authors will just have to suffer with indecision.
My personal answer? Something like the following:

Jade licked her popsicle. "My problem with gender is I have too strong a preference. And a mismatch, you know?"

...




ROFL!

Xaltatun


Oxymoron: Jumbo Shrimp
Impossible: Sustainable Growth
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