Home » The Crystal Hall » Questions and Answers » phase and guns
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62839 is a reply to message #62789 ] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 04:32   |
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 Sir Lee
Messages: 3062
Registered: May 2005
Location: São Paulo, Brazil |
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That depends heavily in one's understanding of how Phase's warp field works. There are two schools of thought:
1. The warp field actually changes the inertial mass of whatever is inside the field. The crucial point here is whether the stored chemical energy in the gunpowder is also changed in the same proportion. If the chemical energy changes proportionally to the change in gunpowder's mass, I expect the equations would balance and the effect cancels out -- a gun which would shoot a 1000 m/s in normal conditions would still shoot a bullet at 1000 m/s *while inside the warp field*.
If, however, the stored chemical energy changes at a *different rate* than the mass (for instance, by not changing at all), then we start getting all sorts of discrepancies. Assuming for the sake of argument that the chemical energy is not affected by the warping field, then the gun would shoot a "heavy" bullet very slowly and a "light" bullet very very fast. The problem with this assumption is that Ayla's muscles also work with stored chemical energy; so Ayla should have trouble moving his own limbs when heavy. And he doesn't. So this assumption seems false to me.
2. The other school of though says that the inertial mass does not actually change inside the warp field; instead, what happens is that the warp field creates a sort of a "lens effect" at the interface between the two domains (inside and outside the field). In the case of a size-warper like Matterhorn or Sizemax, it distorts spatial relationships so that the warper *appears* bigger and stronger than they actually are. In Ayla's case, the "lens" affects not the perception of size, but of density. Again, since there's no actual change in mass for either the bullet, the gun or the gunpowder, the bullet will be travelling at the expected velocity as long as it remains inside the warp field.
When the bullet hits the warp interface is the time when interesting effects happen, like a "heavy" bullet acceleration or a "light" bullet decelerating abruptly.
Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
--
Sent from my Bugs Industries® bPhone™
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62852 is a reply to message #62839 ] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 08:36 |
pedestrian
Messages: 120
Registered: June 2011 |
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School 2 is the one I subscribe to.
In school 1, matterhorn and sizemax would asphyxiate and overheat. That Phase could take over matterhorns mass and use him like a club strongly suggests the reality inside the warp field is normal when measured while also inside the warp field.
There's and old explanation why giants can't exist that boils down to if you double the height you square the surface area but cube the volume. It's why a spider can get around on such spindly legs but a cow needs particularly dense bones to manage.
Also, smaller animals have simpler lungs. A spider again has a "book lung", a frog two balloons of lung. Nothing like the branched affair human lungs are. This branching is to offset that same effect. The lungs need more surface area to extract enough oxygen to feed that greater volume.
| Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 03:32 | That depends heavily in one's understanding of how Phase's warp field works. There are two schools of thought:
1. The warp field actually changes the inertial mass of whatever is inside the field. The crucial point here is whether the stored chemical energy in the gunpowder is also changed in the same proportion. If the chemical energy changes proportionally to the change in gunpowder's mass, I expect the equations would balance and the effect cancels out -- a gun which would shoot a 1000 m/s in normal conditions would still shoot a bullet at 1000 m/s *while inside the warp field*.
If, however, the stored chemical energy changes at a *different rate* than the mass (for instance, by not changing at all), then we start getting all sorts of discrepancies. Assuming for the sake of argument that the chemical energy is not affected by the warping field, then the gun would shoot a "heavy" bullet very slowly and a "light" bullet very very fast. The problem with this assumption is that Ayla's muscles also work with stored chemical energy; so Ayla should have trouble moving his own limbs when heavy. And he doesn't. So this assumption seems false to me.
2. The other school of though says that the inertial mass does not actually change inside the warp field; instead, what happens is that the warp field creates a sort of a "lens effect" at the interface between the two domains (inside and outside the field). In the case of a size-warper like Matterhorn or Sizemax, it distorts spatial relationships so that the warper *appears* bigger and stronger than they actually are. In Ayla's case, the "lens" affects not the perception of size, but of density. Again, since there's no actual change in mass for either the bullet, the gun or the gunpowder, the bullet will be travelling at the expected velocity as long as it remains inside the warp field.
When the bullet hits the warp interface is the time when interesting effects happen, like a "heavy" bullet acceleration or a "light" bullet decelerating abruptly.
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Edit to say, if Warrens bullet, now twice the mass, were propelled by the same force, it'd still transfer that same force to the target. The drop would be there, but the bullet would still transfer 50 grains of powder's worth of energy to the target.
Remember, F=M*A. So if you double M, you halve A, but on the other end F=M*A, so if the A is halved, but the M is doubled, the F still comes out the same. You see the greater drop because gravity doesn't care, but you would also see less wind drift, because the force of the wind would be less able to influence the greater mass.
[Updated on: Sun, 05 August 2012 08:42]
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62855 is a reply to message #62818 ] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 09:18 |
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Sojiro
Messages: 1652
Registered: November 2011 |
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| Warren wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 02:26 | You're forgetting one IMPORTANT element. For a bullet to behave normally inside the warp field it would need a lot more powder to move that heavier projectile.
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No, that's a misconception Diane Castle has debunked several times.
Everything inside the warp field interacts normally, therefore if the gun is entirely heavy (including the bullet and cannon) the bullet will shoot out at its usual speed because the firing mechanism and bullet and powder all interact normally.
The bullet is never actually made heavier, it is only wrapped inside a warp-field that makes it interact with outside elements as if it was. So when Phase fires a heavy gun, she's inside a bubble and fires a bullet. When the bullet gets a couple inches aways, it exits the reach of Ayla's sustainable field, and we know what happens then. It is surrounded by its own warp field that disappears over a second, increasing the item's speed as it does so.
| Warren wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 03:33 | Phasing and density changing works MUCH better with melee weapons and combat. In more ranged combat it becomes more of a defense.
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Golden Girl would beg to disagree. She's the toughest opponent of Phase's Aikido class (first term) and was sent to the hospital with very severe wound with a simple throw of what is essentially a metal marble.
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62857 is a reply to message #62789 ] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 09:39 |
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Grey Shadow
Messages: 44
Registered: February 2012
Location: Australia |
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We know that Ayla's warp field has a short range and that items outside change back to normal within a very quick timespan.
My question is, does Ayla's warp fiend also have a range? EG: A bullet is fired from the phased gun, but at X seconds goes to normal density. Does the bullet go to normal density at Y metres also?
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62859 is a reply to message #62789 ] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 10:04 |
thepowersgang
Messages: 121
Registered: September 2011
Location: Western Australia |
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From what has been shown in canon, Phase's field extends for a very short distance from his skin (enough for a small gym bag if held closely). Once outside this distance, objects slowly return to normal density (I think the time is about 5-10s, but is not stable).
As a quick note: I did some rough calculations based on Ayla's speed increase when Phase-jumping (from a 5m/s jump to 100m/s, a 20x increase) to determine that a 800m/s bullet (Winchester .308) would probably end up travelling at 16km/s when it reaches standard density again (if it gets a chance).
At any distance closer than 800m, wind would be negligible, and (assuming that the bullet stays heavy) there will be virtually no drag losses, turning a stock rifle into an anti-brick weapon.
tl;dr - Phase with a rifle may look hilarious, but you don't want to get hit.
[Updated on: Sun, 05 August 2012 10:04]
Let's see if I end up putting my foot in my mouth again.
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62886 is a reply to message #62857 ] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 20:04 |
Niknokitueu
Messages: 649
Registered: May 2011
Location: Swansea, UK |
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| Grey Shadow wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 14:39 | We know that Ayla's warp field has a short range and that items outside change back to normal within a very quick timespan.
My question is, does Ayla's warp fiend also have a range? EG: A bullet is fired from the phased gun, but at X seconds goes to normal density. Does the bullet go to normal density at Y metres also?
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This has not been revealed (probably because Ayla has not used a heavy gun yet), but it is a safe assumption that the answer is 'no', just a time-based limit.
The only aspect that is distance-based is his ability to change it's density in the first place, and this is at least partly psychological (Remember, no skirts!). Given Ayla's quick-dry ability he does have control over the range, but IIRC his max range is of the order of an inch or two.
I personally think he could either use a holdout pistol (like the 5-shot derringer) that he keeps entirely within his field, or some kind of handgun with a heavily reinforced barrel (heh heh a hand cannon...) where the barrel protrudes from the field, allowing the shot to be flight-stabilised before leaving the barrel (one of the theoretical issues of a bullet becoming un-heavy is that it may not be a smooth transition, which in the case of a derringer would further reduce it's accurate range).
Whatever path Ayla decides to go down, you can be sure that it will have money thrown at it in much the same way as his osmium-weighted extending admantium baton did. The results should be a lot of fun... 
Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
Do, or Do Not. There is no Try.
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62893 is a reply to message #62886 ] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 21:45 |
rubberjohn
Messages: 374
Registered: May 2011
Location: South East Coast UK |
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Reading through all this interesting speculation a thought gradually occurred to me... We are all assuming that Phase would actually want to use a gun, of whatever type.
I seem to recall in one of the earlier stories that Trevor was taken on a hunting trip and discovered that, while fully competent with his weapon, he didn't like killing the prey animal. Additionally Ayla has been repeatedly shown to be very concerned about collateral damage in many of the fights, real and simulated, in which he has taken part.
It strikes me that he would be very reluctant to take up or use a weapon which, if our speculation is correct, could potentially take out not only his target but also continue on to kill or injure innocents to a range which could be measured in tens of miles.
So that begs the question... Why would Phase have any interest in carrying a weapon that he doesn't like or trust and that he couldn't guarantee to control precisely?
Something to think about.
John.
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62901 is a reply to message #62893 ] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 23:32 |
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landing
Messages: 824
Registered: June 2012
Location: Texas |
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| rubberjohn wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 21:45 | Reading through all this interesting speculation a thought gradually occurred to me... We are all assuming that Phase would actually want to use a gun, of whatever type.
I seem to recall in one of the earlier stories that Trevor was taken on a hunting trip and discovered that, while fully competent with his weapon, he didn't like killing the prey animal. Additionally Ayla has been repeatedly shown to be very concerned about collateral damage in many of the fights, real and simulated, in which he has taken part.
It strikes me that he would be very reluctant to take up or use a weapon which, if our speculation is correct, could potentially take out not only his target but also continue on to kill or injure innocents to a range which could be measured in tens of miles.
So that begs the question... Why would Phase have any interest in carrying a weapon that he doesn't like or trust and that he couldn't guarantee to control precisely?
Something to think about.
John.
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I also remembered Ayla talking about guns in that passage, so I could see him being reluctant to use one. Of course he also doesn't like hitting people or using any of his other hold outs to hurt people either.
As for Phase not trusting guns that is something that can be over come with training. He could guarantee that he controls it precisely with such training. Guns are only uncontrollable if the person handling them doesn't know what they are doing. just like many of his other holdouts would be dangerous if handled incorrectly.
[Updated on: Sun, 05 August 2012 23:33]
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62903 is a reply to message #62893 ] |
Mon, 06 August 2012 01:30 |
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greyman
Messages: 222
Registered: May 2011 |
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| rubberjohn wrote on Mon, 06 August 2012 11:45 | So that begs the question... Why would Phase have any interest in carrying a weapon that he doesn't like or trust and that he couldn't guarantee to control precisely?
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Which is why he bought a Cobra linear induction rifle and a maser. One to fire non-lethal rounds similar to the bunny-eggs he already uses, and the other a one-shot brick-buster energy weapon.
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62919 is a reply to message #62859 ] |
Mon, 06 August 2012 08:58 |
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Sojiro
Messages: 1652
Registered: November 2011 |
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| thepowersgang wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 16:04 | From what has been shown in canon, Phase's field extends for a very short distance from his skin (enough for a small gym bag if held closely). Once outside this distance, objects slowly return to normal density (I think the time is about 5-10s, but is not stable).
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It is around 1 second rather that 5~10.
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| Re: phase and guns [message #62983 is a reply to message #62970 ] |
Tue, 07 August 2012 15:45 |
pedestrian
Messages: 120
Registered: June 2011 |
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Gym shoes? I think they probably practice in bare feet as they wear Gis. His jock strap, and chest protector probably consume more space than shoes would in any case. Especially if he uses one of those hard plastic chest protectors.
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) at least a couple of times when there was trouble brewing in the Crystal Hall, so that's a bit more than 'a couple of inches' - not necessarily more than 'a few inches', though, since I'd guess that stuff inside Ayla's field's convex hull would be easier to affect, and trays are usually held with hands on either side. Of course, Ayla could have had his hands wrapped around the front corners to make taking the tray with him easier.