Home » The Crystal Hall » Questions and Answers » If Lovecraft is real, what about King...?
| If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60153] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 23:53  |
 Thrythlind
Messages: 645
Registered: June 2012
Location: Fukushima, Japan |
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Granted a lot of King's stuff includes references to Old Ones, but there were lots of other elements as well.
Could Flagg be poking around? Pennywise?
King's uni is almost as grim dark as Lovecraft's but it has more forces of clear good nature that at least rival Lovecraft's aliens.
Also, as I understand it from Lovecraft you have:
The Outer Gods - evil or at least so totally alien that might as well be so. Nyarlohotep, Azathoth and so on
The Elder Gods - similar levels of power but more prone to help humanity or at least avoid harming us....not the same as an Elder Thing, which the mythos puts as responsible for the eventual evolution of most life on earth, but which were far less powerful than the GOO...who themselves are far less than either Elder or Outer Gods.....the Elder Gods however are disputed as being a proper part of the mythos, too many fans don't like the idea of "good" entities in Lovecraft's uni.
Great Old Ones - not nearly so powerful as either the sets of Gods, have more limits. Include Cthulhu but think even their the squid isn't the worst of the lot
I've seen Sara referred to as either a GOO or an Elder God. Or is she a GOO on her way to being an Elder God. She is human friendly... Maybe an encounter with Nodens or Bast or Hypnos (the other Elder Gods that show up in mythos stories) could help her out a bit.
If you add King's stuff to the mix you bring in concept of God which is equally as unknowable as any of Lovecraft's entities, is more involved with humanity than the now mostly absent Elder Gods and seems inherently benevolent...I'd be tempted to call it the Christian God but that seems to be one facet of the divine entity in King's stuff... Also you can't look at people like Mother Abigail or a couple of others and not see them as being equally different in thought from the norm as the Whateleys and Waites were. Only the character of their "insanity" (rather Faith) is different. Mythos cultists have faith in something that needs them without caring for them, they also don't allow for free will. The chosen of King's God are presented a choice but not forced one way or another, they are merely granted an instinct or knowledge of where there choices would lead. In addition, Mythos cultist care not for the desires and will of those around them, while the instruments in King stories try to take consequences all on themselves. Finally, while as many of the divine lunatics in King stories have sad endings, others are released by the power and able to live normal lives from there on out. The faithful lunacy fades away as the time they're called passes away.
The existence of Reverend Englund and his reported achievement of killing a GOO would point toward a King style Godforce except that he's not nearly tolerant or compassionate enough to be someone that God "has his finger on" in King stories.
Still interesting.
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| Re: If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60160 is a reply to message #60153 ] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 01:52  |
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Diane Castle
Messages: 2511
Registered: September 2007
Location: Oregon, USA |
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| Thrythlind wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 20:53 | Granted a lot of King's stuff includes references to Old Ones, but there were lots of other elements as well.
Could Flagg be poking around? Pennywise?
King's uni is almost as grim dark as Lovecraft's but it has more forces of clear good nature that at least rival Lovecraft's aliens.
Also, as I understand it from Lovecraft you have:
The Outer Gods - evil or at least so totally alien that might as well be so. Nyarlohotep, Azathoth and so on
The Elder Gods - similar levels of power but more prone to help humanity or at least avoid harming us....not the same as an Elder Thing, which the mythos puts as responsible for the eventual evolution of most life on earth, but which were far less powerful than the GOO...who themselves are far less than either Elder or Outer Gods.....the Elder Gods however are disputed as being a proper part of the mythos, too many fans don't like the idea of "good" entities in Lovecraft's uni.
Great Old Ones - not nearly so powerful as either the sets of Gods, have more limits. Include Cthulhu but think even their the squid isn't the worst of the lot
I've seen Sara referred to as either a GOO or an Elder God. Or is she a GOO on her way to being an Elder God. She is human friendly... Maybe an encounter with Nodens or Bast or Hypnos (the other Elder Gods that show up in mythos stories) could help her out a bit.
If you add King's stuff to the mix you bring in concept of God which is equally as unknowable as any of Lovecraft's entities, is more involved with humanity than the now mostly absent Elder Gods and seems inherently benevolent...I'd be tempted to call it the Christian God but that seems to be one facet of the divine entity in King's stuff... Also you can't look at people like Mother Abigail or a couple of others and not see them as being equally different in thought from the norm as the Whateleys and Waites were. Only the character of their "insanity" (rather Faith) is different. Mythos cultists have faith in something that needs them without caring for them, they also don't allow for free will. The chosen of King's God are presented a choice but not forced one way or another, they are merely granted an instinct or knowledge of where there choices would lead. In addition, Mythos cultist care not for the desires and will of those around them, while the instruments in King stories try to take consequences all on themselves. Finally, while as many of the divine lunatics in King stories have sad endings, others are released by the power and able to live normal lives from there on out. The faithful lunacy fades away as the time they're called passes away.
The existence of Reverend Englund and his reported achievement of killing a GOO would point toward a King style Godforce except that he's not nearly tolerant or compassionate enough to be someone that God "has his finger on" in King stories.
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There's a big section on this in the "Canon Material" forum. It's Dr. Bender's "Field Guide to the Cthulhu Mythos". It will answer a number of your questions.
Next. Even in Lovecraft, the good guys (humans) sometimes win. And without being turned into drooling basketcases or sliming monsters. Plus, Lovecraft never had superheroes to help his main characters.
The Reverend England has banished or killed or helped kill a number of very, very bad things, in a career that has spanned *decades*. Whether he has the power to really *kill* a Great Old One is pretty debatable. However, being able to stop even something a couple notches down the ladder from a GOO is a phenomenal achievement. He may see the world as black and white, but that's largely a factor of his life experience. He may see Carmilla as a dire threat to the planet, but... Oh wait, why don't we think he's right this time?
Diane
"WHO has deactivated my BEAUTIFUL frogs?"
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| Re: If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60173 is a reply to message #60153 ] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 07:37 |
Glimmervoid
Messages: 93
Registered: August 2011 |
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| Thrythlind wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 04:53 | The Elder Gods - similar levels of power but more prone to help humanity or at least avoid harming us....not the same as an Elder Thing, which the mythos puts as responsible for the eventual evolution of most life on earth, but which were far less powerful than the GOO...who themselves are far less than either Elder or Outer Gods.....the Elder Gods however are disputed as being a proper part of the mythos, too many fans don't like the idea of "good" entities in Lovecraft's uni.
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Thrythlind, where the Elder Gods fit into the power hierarchy in the Cthulhu Mythos very much depends on which version you are using. August Derleth set them as a 'good' force in opposition to the Other/Outer Gods but others put them in very different places. Some wrote them out entirely, others set them at a level with the Great Old Ones and others have combined them with the 'weak gods of earth' who dwell in the Dreamlands.
Going by what Dr. Bender wrote here in the Canon Materials section, Whateley doesn't seem to have Outer God level Elder Gods, but it's not made explicitly clear. I'd guess we are working with a Great Old One >= Elder God Mythos but that's just my guess. Read the post and make up your own mind.
Edit: Found this. Dr. Bender expands a bit with the use of a 0-6 power ranking scale. The Great Old Ones rank as a 4 on this scale and so do the Elder Gods. To quote,
| Quote: | The 'Elder Gods' that reputedly faced the GOOs in their rumoured cataclysmic battle may have once reached this power level, or perhaps only a few of them. What happened to the Elder Gods, whoever they were, is a matter of debate.
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Edit 2: Upon further reflections I've realised I was misunderstanding the Field Guide to the Cthulhu Mythos a bit. Elder Gods and Great Old Ones are quite clearly in the same hierarchy category, so we are definitely not operation in a Elder Gods = Other Gods universe.
[Updated on: Tue, 19 June 2012 12:04]
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| Re: If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60242 is a reply to message #60160 ] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 16:35 |
mn--
Messages: 130
Registered: May 2011
Location: Finland |
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| Diane Castle wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 08:52 |
The Reverend England (... ...) He may see the world as black and white, but that's largely a factor of his life experience. He may see Carmilla as a dire threat to the planet, but... Oh wait, why don't we think he's right this time?
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...because she seems to be on "our" side?
Where "our" side means on the side of the protagonists, not necessarily the general public, and definitely not your stereotypical socially conservative and devout-to-slightly-fundamentalist Christian "core" congregation. Which is where Engl(a|u)nd may be, actually...
(Who, me? I learned about Lovecraftian entities and how to deal with them at our church youth activities, what do you think?)
Oh, and the reader may have noticed that there really are more immediate threats to the planet, all the more so as it seems that Carmilla may actually benefit significantly from keeping humanity in general around (although not necessarily in a state or form that the Reverend, and others of similar persuasion, would see as better than dead), but that information isn't generally available and/or reliable to the various characters. Mostly.
...right?
[Updated on: Thu, 21 June 2012 16:41]
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| Re: If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60247 is a reply to message #60242 ] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 17:04 |
 dr. bibber
Messages: 729
Registered: May 2011
Location: Netherlands |
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| mn-- wrote on Thu, 21 June 2012 22:35 | | Diane Castle wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 08:52 |
The Reverend England (... ...) He may see the world as black and white, but that's largely a factor of his life experience. He may see Carmilla as a dire threat to the planet, but... Oh wait, why don't we think he's right this time?
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...because she seems to be on "our" side?
Where "our" side means on the side of the protagonists, not necessarily the general public, and definitely not your stereotypical socially conservative and devout-to-slightly-fundamentalist Christian "core" congregation. Which is where Engl(a|u)nd may be, actually...
(Who, me? I learned about Lovecraftian entities and how to deal with them at our church youth activities, what do you think?)
Oh, and the reader may have noticed that there really are more immediate threats to the planet, all the more so as it seems that Carmilla may actually benefit significantly from keeping humanity in general around (although not necessarily in a state or form that the Reverend, and others of similar persuasion, would see as better than dead), but that information isn't generally available and/or reliable to the various characters. Mostly.
...right?
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Oh yes, as child of the 60th I really would like to see more followers of Carmilla around. Lets make love, no war. You know. Here try my joint for a change. Or would you prefer some LSD?
Yours, Leo
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| Re: If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60254 is a reply to message #60153 ] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 18:26 |
khade
Messages: 1639
Registered: May 2011
Location: Rockies |
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The title to this topic made me think that you were asking about the King in Yellow.
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| Re: If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60258 is a reply to message #60160 ] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 20:16 |
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greyman
Messages: 230
Registered: May 2011 |
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| Diane Castle wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 15:52 | The Reverend England has banished or killed or helped kill a number of very, very bad things, in a career that has spanned *decades*. Whether he has the power to really *kill* a Great Old One is pretty debatable. However, being able to stop even something a couple notches down the ladder from a GOO is a phenomenal achievement. He may see the world as black and white, but that's largely a factor of his life experience. He may see Carmilla as a dire threat to the planet, but... Oh wait, why don't we think he's right this time?
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Why would we assume he's always been right before?
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| Re: If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60266 is a reply to message #60173 ] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 20:45 |
TheEyes
Messages: 456
Registered: May 2011 |
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| Glimmervoid wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 07:37 | Edit 2: Upon further reflections I've realised I was misunderstanding the Field Guide to the Cthulhu Mythos a bit. Elder Gods and Great Old Ones are quite clearly in the same hierarchy category, so we are definitely not operation in a Elder Gods = Other Gods universe.
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On the other hand, the Tao seems to be a force on a level with the Outer Gods, and in one of the Chou stories the Monkey King seems to imply that the Tao is trying to fight off the Outer Gods, who according to him are invaders into the universe, rather than being a part of it.
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| Re: If Lovecraft is real, what about King...? [message #60514 is a reply to message #60153 ] |
Tue, 26 June 2012 04:37 |
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GuesssWho
Messages: 257
Registered: December 2011 |
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Honestly, my assumption would be that Englund is almost never right and may actually be doing the Outer Gods' work for them. He seems stupidly intolerant enough to be easily led.
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