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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60027 is a reply to message #60023 ] |
Sat, 16 June 2012 15:03   |
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 Diane Castle
Messages: 2505
Registered: September 2007
Location: Oregon, USA |
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[1] Psi doesn't use stamina as much as concentration and will. There's no need for Essence to do magic. It also requires learning how to do particular kinds of Psi 'knacks' if you can learn them, or learning how to leverage what you can do. (This last one is really what makes The Don so dangerous.)
[2] Psi is usually described as separate from Esper and PK powers. The PDP can do all three categories. A Psi might be able to read minds, project emotions, etc. But doing more than one at a time requires splitting your concentration and will, so it weakens what your powers can do.
[3] Psi can improve with practice. Learning to increase concentration and hold it for longer. Learning how to better wield any Psi talents you have. Learning more things you can do with what you have. All these things (and more, like blocking someone else's Psi abilities, or avoiding them) get taught in the Psychic Arts program.
[4] Practice can improve *some* tricks. Let's take Jinn's ability to read emotions. She needed lots of practice to learn what 'colors' were which emotions. She needed lots of practice to be able to figure out how those emotions related to what the person was thinking. As she gets better and better, she can use this as a low-level mindreading talent, much like Nikki already does.
[5] No one (except Sahar and Zenith) knows enough about her power to be able to answer that exactly.
[6] Can ESP, Pk or Tp mutants learn completely different uses of their trait? No. Someone with Telekinesis cannot learn Electrokinesis/Pyrokinesis/Cryokinesis. A Telepath with Passive Telepathy cannot learn Active and/or Coercive telepathy. An Empath cannot learn other traits.
[7] Could a Psi rating go undetected in presence of strong Esper or Wizard traits? It's possible. The powers testing guys at Whateley *ought* to spot it, since they're experts. But anybody else oculd easily miss something like that. And a person could easily claim (or believe) that his 'telepathy' is a spell he does, rather than a Psi gift independent of his WIZ powers or any available Essence. Another Wizard ought to be able to tell that he is not using Essence to power the Psi trick, which should tip people off. But you could, if you wanted, simply *lie* about it.
Diane
"WHO has deactivated my BEAUTIFUL frogs?"
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60028 is a reply to message #60026 ] |
Sat, 16 June 2012 15:17 |
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Nicky82
Messages: 1404
Registered: May 2011 |
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| Dr. Bender wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 20:42 | 6. NO. If you are rated as ESP 1, you are ESP 1, you will never learn to do anything else. The PSI rating is a fundamentally different source of power than a straight ESP rating. It's not the same form of energy at all. Both might be mutant powers but they tap into totally different power sources. Essentially they're two different paths to the same effect.
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Actually it wasn't what I was asking, what I was asking is if an ESP-3 (I use the level 3 of the old classification), lets say Psychometrist, can learn a different ESP, lets say Empathy, it starts as an ESP-3 and stay an ESP-3, similarry can a Kinetist with raw telekinesis learn pyrokinesis? Basically if the trait is set in stone or it can adapt while staying true to its nature. (I'm trying to understand where the learning curve of the specific powers can lead and where it can't.)
EDIT: Diane has already answered this one.
[Updated on: Sat, 16 June 2012 15:21]
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60034 is a reply to message #58557 ] |
Sat, 16 June 2012 19:08 |
TheEyes
Messages: 453
Registered: May 2011 |
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Hm. So what you're saying is, in general, there are two different "kingdoms" of psychic mutants:
"Generalized" Psychic (PSI): Mutants who convert biological energy directly into psionic energy. Can learn many different powers, or "knacks", but because they draw directly from their own body usually have stamina problems that specialised psychic mutants don't have.
"Specialized" Psychic (classified further by power, telepath/telekinetic/esper/PDP): Mutants who draw from an unknown power source to power psychic abilities. Usually are limited in the number of "knacks": typically either just one (like say Hank who currently only has his PK skinfield) or three, one from each major "discipline" (that is, PDPs). Although there is sometimes some bleedover, that is, some of the energy for these knacks are still powered by biological energy (which is why, for example, Hank eats like an energizer), generally speaking specialized Psychics don't have the same stamina problems that PSIs do.
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60035 is a reply to message #58557 ] |
Sat, 16 June 2012 19:23 |
khade
Messages: 1597
Registered: May 2011
Location: Rockies |
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Hank actually currently has 3 knacks, his base one(skin tight shielding, flight, strength), expanding his shield to let him do the paper swords, and the energy absorption/blast. There is one more that I know of that he could learn, which is the frictionless shield, which would allow him to potentially fly faster then 300mph.
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60039 is a reply to message #60035 ] |
Sat, 16 June 2012 22:45 |
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Diane Castle
Messages: 2505
Registered: September 2007
Location: Oregon, USA |
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| khade wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 16:23 | Hank actually currently has 3 knacks, his base one(skin tight shielding, flight, strength), expanding his shield to let him do the paper swords, and the energy absorption/blast. There is one more that I know of that he could learn, which is the frictionless shield, which would allow him to potentially fly faster then 300mph.
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The first doesn't really count as a knack, since it's the standard. The other two are more expansions of the base PK Brick powers.
The frictionless shield would let him fly faster than his current 50 or 60 mph, but not 300 mph. This is Whateley, not Marvel. 
Diane
"WHO has deactivated my BEAUTIFUL frogs?"
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60041 is a reply to message #58557 ] |
Sat, 16 June 2012 22:58 |
khade
Messages: 1597
Registered: May 2011
Location: Rockies |
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Ah, I was just going on what I remembered reading, a comment from a bad seed, I didn't mean to state that he'd be able to fly that fast, just that there was something about a hard speed limit for tk supermen that didn't have that knack. I probably should have looked up the quote.
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60051 is a reply to message #60028 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 03:19 |
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Dr. Bender
Messages: 1125
Registered: January 2005
Location: 47°9′S 126°43′W |
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| Nicky82 wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 15:17 | | Dr. Bender wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 20:42 | 6. NO. If you are rated as ESP 1, you are ESP 1, you will never learn to do anything else. The PSI rating is a fundamentally different source of power than a straight ESP rating. It's not the same form of energy at all. Both might be mutant powers but they tap into totally different power sources. Essentially they're two different paths to the same effect.
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Actually it wasn't what I was asking, what I was asking is if an ESP-3 (I use the level 3 of the old classification), lets say Psychometrist, can learn a different ESP, lets say Empathy, it starts as an ESP-3 and stay an ESP-3, similarry can a Kinetist with raw telekinesis learn pyrokinesis? Basically if the trait is set in stone or it can adapt while staying true to its nature. (I'm trying to understand where the learning curve of the specific powers can lead and where it can't.)
EDIT: Diane has already answered this one.
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I answered it too, in the first scentence. The rest of the answer was explaining why.
The statement in my signature is false.
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60064 is a reply to message #60051 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 07:40 |
TheEyes
Messages: 453
Registered: May 2011 |
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| Dr. Bender wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 03:19 | | Nicky82 wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 15:17 | | Dr. Bender wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 20:42 | 6. NO. If you are rated as ESP 1, you are ESP 1, you will never learn to do anything else. The PSI rating is a fundamentally different source of power than a straight ESP rating. It's not the same form of energy at all. Both might be mutant powers but they tap into totally different power sources. Essentially they're two different paths to the same effect.
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Actually it wasn't what I was asking, what I was asking is if an ESP-3 (I use the level 3 of the old classification), lets say Psychometrist, can learn a different ESP, lets say Empathy, it starts as an ESP-3 and stay an ESP-3, similarry can a Kinetist with raw telekinesis learn pyrokinesis? Basically if the trait is set in stone or it can adapt while staying true to its nature. (I'm trying to understand where the learning curve of the specific powers can lead and where it can't.)
EDIT: Diane has already answered this one.
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I answered it too, in the first scentence. The rest of the answer was explaining why.
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Well, the thing is we've already seen this happen a few times in canon already. The Big Idea shows this happening with two different ESP-rated mutants: Ace, who opened up his psychometrist ability to be able to do more than his default knack of picking up skills from psychically charged objects, and Migraine, who had several different breakthroughs, expanding from a headache-inducing telepathic ability to a full-blown PDP. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Zenith also managed to expand her power from her original "Database" knack to include more general telepathy; she and Sahar can do that nonverbal communication trick now.
I'd mention Sahar too, but she might actually be a generalised PSI mutant, not just a mutant with an extradimensionally-powered psionic knack.
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60068 is a reply to message #60034 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 08:32 |
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greyman
Messages: 226
Registered: May 2011 |
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| TheEyes wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 09:08 | Hm. So what you're saying is, in general, there are two different "kingdoms" of psychic mutants:
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What seems to be happening is we have two different classification systems used by two canon authors.
Which story contained Dr. Otto talking to Sara about a new rating scale which was based on classifying powers based on source rather than effect? That seems to be the difference in the answers Dr Bender and Diane have been giving.| TheEyes wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 09:08 | "Generalized" Psychic (PSI): Mutants who convert biological energy directly into psionic energy. Can learn many different powers, or "knacks", but because they draw directly from their own body usually have stamina problems that specialised psychic mutants don't have.
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This is the Hewley-Aranis(?) system favored by Dr. Bender. In it the Psi category covers all powers with a psychic source; whether the effect is mental, physical, or sensory. Knacks are treated as acquirable techniques; the way mages learn spells. Psychics can potentially develop in any way they try; though individuals find different directions easier than others.| TheEyes wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 09:08 | "Specialized" Psychic (classified further by power, telepath/telekinetic/esper/PDP): Mutants who draw from an unknown power source to power psychic abilities. Usually are limited in the number of "knacks": typically either just one (like say Hank who currently only has his PK skinfield) or three, one from each major "discipline" (that is, PDPs). Although there is sometimes some bleedover, that is, some of the energy for these knacks are still powered by biological energy (which is why, for example, Hank eats like an energizer), generally speaking specialized Psychics don't have the same stamina problems that PSIs do.
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This appears to be the way Diane Castle views it; the Yerunkle-Corbin(?) system. The Psi category she uses refers specifically to mental abilities; and this is considered distinct from the psychokinetic and esper categories. Knacks are treated as innate talents that need to be discovered and exercised. Psychics can only develop abilities to which they are predisposed.
P.D.P. are treated as having a separate trait that imitates the three psychic traits.
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Which is correct? The answer seems to be: both are true, from a certain point of view.
[Updated on: Wed, 20 June 2012 07:12]
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60070 is a reply to message #60027 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 09:20 |
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Cockle
Messages: 646
Registered: July 2011
Location: UK |
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| Diane Castle wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 20:03 |
[6] Can ESP, Pk or Tp mutants learn completely different uses of their trait? No. Someone with Telekinesis cannot learn Electrokinesis/Pyrokinesis/Cryokinesis.
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For someone with "regular" TK, wouldn't the other cases just require finer control and focus? Heat is just moving atoms around, which is what TK does already. So simply making things hot or cold seems feasible, with practice. Potentially very hot.
Electrokinesis might be a bit different, since although it's "just" moving electrons, not every material normally permits the movement of electrons so there could well be more going on.
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60104 is a reply to message #60084 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 18:18 |
TheEyes
Messages: 453
Registered: May 2011 |
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| Sojiro wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 12:39 | PS: I'll add that the comment saying that there was contention on whether projective Empathy was Psi or ESP would strongly indicate that the two categories are not separated by "unlimited use with limited variety / limited use with unlimited variety".
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I think what might be happening is someone is confusing Psi with Telepathy. In other words, there are essentially four categories in the psychic arts:
PSI - These are the "generalists" who can learn any art, but draw on their own reserves to power their psychic abilities. Higher-rated PSIs can draw on their reserves more quickly, and build them up faster.
Then the other three are the "unlimited use, limited variety" types:
TP - Telepathic knack (mind reading, etc)
ESP - Esper knack (precog, Paragon, etc)
TK - Telekinetic knack
And someone with all three of these would be a PDP.
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| Re: Envy and the Gilded Cage [message #60132 is a reply to message #60039 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 05:11 |
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Nicky82
Messages: 1404
Registered: May 2011 |
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| Diane Castle wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 04:45 | | khade wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 16:23 | Hank actually currently has 3 knacks, his base one(skin tight shielding, flight, strength), expanding his shield to let him do the paper swords, and the energy absorption/blast. There is one more that I know of that he could learn, which is the frictionless shield, which would allow him to potentially fly faster then 300mph.
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The first doesn't really count as a knack, since it's the standard. The other two are more expansions of the base PK Brick powers.
The frictionless shield would let him fly faster than his current 50 or 60 mph, but not 300 mph. This is Whateley, not Marvel.
Diane
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Personally I don't see how it can help at all (or how a field of repulsive energy can be not frictionless, for the matter), the Pk field is permeable to air, if it wasn't the kinetist wouldn't be able to breath, as such the fact that it is frictionless should be pretty much irrelevant as the friction is not due the field but due the body...... not to mention that a fritionless field/body wouldn't do much to solve the problem of the drag derived from the turbulence generated.
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