Home » The Crystal Hall » Questions and Answers » Gene scans? Hold on, there...
| Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52539] |
Sat, 28 January 2012 11:25  |
 Schol-R-LEA
Messages: 43
Registered: January 2012
Location: Norcross, GA |
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I have only read up to 'The Op', so perhaps I'm simply missing something, but something in Ayla's origin story puzzles me. When Trevor's parents came to the lab for an explanation of how their child had turned out to be a mutant, one of the things that came up was that they had performed a gene scan on every member of the family, to test for the 'mutant meta-gene complex'. Hammond seemed certain that Trevor had not been a mutant before, and spun out a theory that there was a transmissible virus which had insinuated the mutant gene into Trevor.
But wait a moment there. If there was a consistent, workable means of detecting mutants early on like that, one would expect that the Goodkinds would have been selling it publicly; after all, it would be a matter of public safety, wouldn't it? While it is unlikely that it would be put into general use (due to privacy concerns), it would certainly be applied to anyone thought to be a mutant, if only to confirm the rather less rigorous sorts of tests we've seen done to determine whether a student is suitable for Whateley. One would expect H1! would buy the tests wholesale to apply to their own members, to keep out infiltrators and to test their own families with.
Yet no where else in the series is the gene scan mentioned. Why would this be, when such a test ought to have come up at least a few times?
For that matter, Hammond seems to be the only one to mention the 'mutant meta-gene complex', and as others on the forum have pointed out, the idea that there is a single 'meta gene complex' which determines mutant powers doesn't fit in very well with modern genetics.
My theory? Dr Hammond is a quack, and the 'mutant meta-gene' theory either a delusion or a deliberate hoax. There is no effective gene scan for mutant powers; the Goodkinds only believed him because it fit in with their paranoia, but no one else is buying into it. Trevor was a mutant the whole time.
As I said, this is based on only a partial reading of the series, so it is possible that the hypothesis has already been disproved in other stories. Still, it would make more sense than the Goodkinds holding something like that a secret, at least to me.
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52541 is a reply to message #52539 ] |
Sat, 28 January 2012 11:46  |
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Sir Lee
Messages: 3110
Registered: May 2005
Location: São Paulo, Brazil |
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"Scanning" in this context is meant to say "run a gene sequencing analysis on everybody." This is existing tech, it can be used to detect genetic diseases, for instance. Only it's slow and a bit expensive. Which is not a problem for the Goodkinds, of course.
Here's the thing: previous studies estimate that as much as one sixth of the population carries the so-called "metagene complex." This complex of genes is present in all mutants, but only a very small portion of those who HAVE the complex ever manifest as mutants. That is, it's thought to be a necessary part of mutant manifestation, but not sufficient in itself.
So, for everybody BUT rich folks suffering from mutant paranoia (that is, the Goodkinds) it makes no sense to pay a fair amount of money to have your genes sequenced for the metagene complex. It won't prove anything.
Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
--
Sent from my Bugs Industries® bPhone™
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52554 is a reply to message #52541 ] |
Sat, 28 January 2012 18:18 |
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greyman
Messages: 230
Registered: May 2011 |
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(See also the Braeburn Report.)
The Goodkinds and MCO both scan their new recruits (and spouses) to avoid future conflicts of interest. They are not looking for active mutants, as such, but rather attempting to guarantee that employees in 'sensitive' areas won't have second thoughts about company policy because their kids later manifest.
Then along came Trevor.
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52562 is a reply to message #52554 ] |
Sat, 28 January 2012 21:36 |
rubberjohn
Messages: 382
Registered: May 2011
Location: South East Coast UK |
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I think I ought to point out that WoG, posted in these forums (though possibly lost in the Great Crash), points out that some of the conclusions drawn in the Braeburn Report are not correct. While the deduction process itself that led to the conclusions is fairly sound the data it was based on was flawed.
John.
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52590 is a reply to message #52539 ] |
Sun, 29 January 2012 08:27 |
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Nicky82
Messages: 1409
Registered: May 2011 |
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I think that Sir Lee has made a fair point but there's a little fact that makes his point weaker:
WU has tech that's more advanced than ours, both due to gadgeteers and baseline supergeniuses, and the Goodkinds have spent a LOT of moneys in technology that can help dealing with mutants.
Specifically, gene sequencing analysis is much faster and cheaper than ours, when Dr Braeburn analizes his DNA after the incident with the pearl in the Braeburn Report it takes the DNA sequencer FIVE minutes to analize it, and he does it twice without without anyone noticing it, if it was that expensive it would have needed some kind of authorization to do so (for the sake of accounting the use of resources and how much in impact on the budget), the process is has to be fast and cheap enough that every potential employ is scanned.
However most of people won't bother, actual knowledge about the metagene complex is limited (Trevor James Goodkind knew about the Meta-Gene Complex from some highly classified documents from the MCO, Dr Braeburn said that if he hadn't been an MCO employ he wouldn't have had access to the documents about the research done), most of people will know that mutants are people who gets paranormal abilities from oddball genetics (plus the H1! propaganda, which they might agreed with or not), and even than the chances for a Meta-Gene Complex to result in an active mutant is ridicuosly low, it would take REALLY paranoid people (like the Goodkinds) to go as far as scanning their whole family, even more for enforcing their own eugenetic policies.
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52617 is a reply to message #52590 ] |
Sun, 29 January 2012 16:43 |
Schol-R-LEA
Messages: 43
Registered: January 2012
Location: Norcross, GA |
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Ah, well, I've now read as far as The Braeburn Report, which did Joss the theory I'd had. Whether or not the theory proposed in TBR is correct, it does indicate that some ability to test for a mutant meta-gene complex exists - and that there is at the very least one way of 'contracting' the gene complex as well, even if it is more metaphysical than biological.
I still say that Hammond is a quack, though, as his 'techniques' seem completely unscientific (not to mention unethical and sadistic). Given what we know from TBR, there is more evidence for mutant powers being spread magically than for his postulated 'mutant virus', though we only have a single data point even for the magical option. There's no clear indication yet as to how Trevor/Ayla became a mutant, and if the gene scan used by the Goodkinds was developed (I almost said 'devised', something the not-so-good doctor would surely object to) by Hammond, it may simply have been a faulty scan - which again opens the possibility that Trevor was born with the mutant meta-gene complex.
[Updated on: Sun, 29 January 2012 16:49]
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52620 is a reply to message #52617 ] |
Sun, 29 January 2012 17:19 |
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Diane Castle
Messages: 2511
Registered: September 2007
Location: Oregon, USA |
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| Schol-R-LEA wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 13:43 | Ah, well, I've now read as far as The Braeburn Report, which did Joss the theory I'd had. Whether or not the theory proposed in TBR is correct, it does indicate that some ability to test for a mutant meta-gene complex exists - and that there is at the very least one way of 'contracting' the gene complex as well, even if it is more metaphysical than biological.
I still say that Hammond is a quack, though, as his 'techniques' seem completely unscientific (not to mention unethical and sadistic). Given what we know from TBR, there is more evidence for mutant powers being spread magically than for his postulated 'mutant virus', though we only have a single data point even for the magical option. There's no clear indication yet as to how Trevor/Ayla became a mutant, and if the gene scan used by the Goodkinds was developed (I almost said 'devised', something the not-so-good doctor would surely object to) by Hammond, it may simply have been a faulty scan - which again opens the possibility that Trevor was born with the mutant meta-gene complex.
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Well, it's well known that the Meta-Gene Complex (or MGC) is widespread. It is present in roughly one sixth of all people on earth. In other words, it's a fairly large collection of assorted introns in people's DNA. Research has managed to peg mutants as starting with this. But that's over a billion people. Why do only a eensy, weensy percentage of these people actually MANIFEST as mutants? There are dozens of competing theories. The 'unusual environmental impacts' theories are big: can certain chemicals turn on the mutant genes? Or could it be retrovirii? Or certain prions? Or other things? Hammond's theory is actually one of the theories currently 'in vogue'.
These theories are trying to explain some of the noted features in the Whateley Universe. Why is there a hotspot of mutant manifestation in and around New York City? Why is there a smaller and more recent hotspot in the Los Angeles basin? Why is the overall mutancy rate higher in the U.S. than anywhere else? Why are Canada and Western Europe next in rate? Why are Africa and Asia lower than most places?
And that doesn't even deal with things like the *unknown* mutancy rate in Russia and China and North Korea. Information on the current mutancy rate in Russia is now becoming available, and Russian teenagers (like Glissade) are now starting to come to Whateley. But most Chinese students are probably being kept back: we don't really know yet. (Chain Lightning is Tibetan, Silver Serpent's father is a supervillain who doesn't take orders from anyone, Quyen Nu is Vietnamese.)
Diane
"WHO has deactivated my BEAUTIFUL frogs?"
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52636 is a reply to message #52620 ] |
Sun, 29 January 2012 20:12 |
Isodecan
Messages: 857
Registered: May 2011
Location: Fort Worth, TX |
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I blame GOO sorcery. Think of mutants as an immune response or perhaps and allergic reaction.
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52655 is a reply to message #52539 ] |
Mon, 30 January 2012 02:40 |
khade
Messages: 1639
Registered: May 2011
Location: Rockies |
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Doesn't corelate, I remember hearing that Indonesia or someplace near it has one of the biggest comic book and superhero obsessions after the US of A, they don't have many mutants, but they do have tons of non mutant supers.
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52660 is a reply to message #52617 ] |
Mon, 30 January 2012 04:10 |
Niknokitueu
Messages: 668
Registered: May 2011
Location: Swansea, UK |
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| Schol-R-LEA wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 21:43 | I still say that Hammond is a quack, though, as his 'techniques' seem completely unscientific (not to mention unethical and sadistic). Given what we know from TBR, there is more evidence for mutant powers being spread magically than for his postulated 'mutant virus', though we only have a single data point even for the magical option.
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Minor quibble here: One of the foundation points of the Whateley Universe is that Scientists think Magic is bunkum (explaining it as anything from PSI powers to utilisation of future-tech that is sufficiently advanced to look like magic), whilst Mages regard Science as worthless (as they know that they can bend or outright ignore a lot of scientific 'laws').
So naturally the good doctor would not consider Magic as a serious transmission factor. At best, he would think of it the same way we would think 'will of god'. Just as understandable, and just as unreliable.
And as an aside, The Canon Cabal (TINCC) have not actually revealed which 'facts' from the Braeburn Report are inaccurate. My guess is that the report is predicting exponential curves whilst in reality we are looking at 'S'-shaped curves. So the crisis points are not actually going to be reached, as such. It is just we are at such an early point on the curve that the end result is still only guesswork.
I think that the main thrusts are correct:
No. of mutants is on the rise, seeming to appear spontaneously in a lot of cases.
Mutant parents have mutant babies.
Power levels are on the rise.
Trans-gender (and other 'deformities') increase with power level.
Mutants are incredibly fertile and long-lived.
Humanity (in its non-mutant form) is eventually going to be replaced with Mutants (ie humanity in a mutant form).
I just think that all their equations are bunkum. My 2p.
Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. Anyone else like the fact that the story has the name tag of a type of apple? As in garden of evil/tree of knowledge apple?
Do, or Do Not. There is no Try.
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| Re: Gene scans? Hold on, there... [message #52684 is a reply to message #52660 ] |
Mon, 30 January 2012 14:51 |
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Diane Castle
Messages: 2511
Registered: September 2007
Location: Oregon, USA |
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| Niknokitueu wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 01:10 | Minor quibble here: One of the foundation points of the Whateley Universe is that Scientists think Magic is bunkum (explaining it as anything from PSI powers to utilisation of future-tech that is sufficiently advanced to look like magic), whilst Mages regard Science as worthless (as they know that they can bend or outright ignore a lot of scientific 'laws'). So naturally the good doctor would not consider Magic as a serious transmission factor. At best, he would think of it the same way we would think 'will of god'. Just as understandable, and just as unreliable.
And as an aside, The Canon Cabal (TINCC) have not actually revealed which 'facts' from the Braeburn Report are inaccurate. My guess is that the report is predicting exponential curves whilst in reality we are looking at 'S'-shaped curves. So the crisis points are not actually going to be reached, as such. It is just we are at such an early point on the curve that the end result is still only guesswork.
I think that the main thrusts are correct:
No. of mutants is on the rise, seeming to appear spontaneously in a lot of cases.
Mutant parents have mutant babies.
Power levels are on the rise.
Trans-gender (and other 'deformities') increase with power level.
Mutants are incredibly fertile and long-lived.
Humanity (in its non-mutant form) is eventually going to be replaced with Mutants (ie humanity in a mutant form).
I just think that all their equations are bunkum. My 2p.
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Well, 'magic' is hard to quantify and scientifically validate when you already have Psi effects and reality warpers and probability warpers and gadgeteers and devisers around. So the hardcore 'science' types like Dr. Messing have demonstrated that so-called 'magic' has not been *proven* statistically to be different in causation from what can be achieved without magic. That doesn't mean they're right. (Technically, it doesn't mean they're wrong either.) But they don't see a difference. Similarly, the magical researchers don't see a difference between their magic and these so-called 'devises'. The 'both exist' point of view has been discouraged primarily due to lack of sound evidence and the people pushing this concept: Doctor Egregious was one of the most outspoken people on this, but he also spent years trying to turn the moon into green cheese, and he had a tendency to wear gloves on his feet and shoes on his hands, with his shirts on his legs and his underwear on his head, so...
Your point about the exponential vs. sigmoid curves is excellent. It's one of the important errors in Braeburn's math/stat work. He's fitting the wrong curve. Plus, he's using incorrect data for some of the curve features. Granted, in the early stages, the difference between an exponential and a sigmoid curve is practically nonexistent. It matters more in middle stages and is crucial in later stages.
And now for your individual points:
* No. of mutants is on the rise, seeming to appear spontaneously in a lot of cases.
Yes.
Mutant parents have mutant babies.
Usually, although we don't have a guarantee on that.
Power levels are on the rise.
Maybe not. Some of the most powerful mutants on the planet are the oldest ones. But as the number of mutants increases, the number with the top 1% of power levels also increases.
Trans-gender (and other 'deformities') increase with power level.
Current research suggest that it may be the other way around. Power level may be correlated with severity of change and also early onset (at 12 or 13 instead of 14) of powers, and the caausality is being evaluated as going in this direction.
Mutants are incredibly fertile and long-lived.
Some are. Most mutants have normal lifespans. But some have freakishly long ones. Billie, Nikki, and Sara don't count here, because they're not really human (anymore). Ms. Carson is aging very slowly, but Champions I and II (her colleagues) seemed to age normally.
Some mutants are REALLY fertile: Captain Courage knocked up so many women that he's better known as Captain Condom than his official codename. Some are really not fertile. It is still being studied.
Humanity (in its non-mutant form) is eventually going to be replaced with Mutants (ie humanity in a mutant form).
Maybe. Maybe not. If people think of it as 'my kids could get a big upgrade and be awesome!' then things will go better than if everyone thinks of it as 'mutants taking over'. In case two, expect outright warfare and possibly world-ending destruction. Assuming crazed mutants like Cataclysm don't destroy the planet first.
Diane
"WHO has deactivated my BEAUTIFUL frogs?"
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