Home » The Crystal Hall » Administrative Notes » Ethical behavior and Consideration of Others
| Ethical behavior and Consideration of Others [message #2611] |
Tue, 12 July 2005 20:12  |
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 Renae
Messages: 657
Registered: January 2005
Location: El Paso, TX |
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| Do we need to have an active moderator on the forums?[ 8 vote(s) ] |
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| 1. | Yes ? |  4 / 50% | | 2. | No ? | 1 / 13% | | 3. | No Opinion. | 3 / 38% |
Lately, I have been finding that the lack of tact and demeanor of some individuals on various topics to be demeaning to the authors and fans alike. In some ways it is demeaning to the persons themselves who are being offensive. While we have not needed to post rules or even to need a moderator, that time seems to be fading quicky, in my opinion. The authors collectively spend a great many hours of there -free- time to provide a goodly number of stories, not just in the Whateley Universe, but in others of their own creation.
Currently I have a few things to make appearent or to spell out, evidently:
First for all: For the love of Pete, realize this is a fantasy world, with fantasy events, and fictional people in it. While a bit of realism is taken from our REAL WORLD is added to make it seem more real and vibrant, it is -still- FICTION. Being an expert or claiming to be an expert in the real world is of no consequnce to things/places/events in the Whateley Universe.
Comments of: That is not how it is in the -real- world or -that's not right- are only annoying in that they have to be -ignored- and detract from the credibility of person making those sort of statements. Especially when it is a -fictional- world they are discussing! Secondly, I find it a triffle wearing that I even have to wade though such malarky in threads where the subjects are not even related. As do most people.
Going Way Off Topic, to raise a point best left in another thread, not to mention likely in a PM to a -specific person- is hardly the way to win freinds and influence people either.
If you have not noticed, by the shear volume of work in the Whateley Universe story Area on Sapphires Place, we give a lot to you all. If you add up the word counts and page counts alone we've dang near wrote a trillogy or more just in one world. Not to mention other the Artistic endvourse by Dr. Bender.
If the authors get fed up, do you think they'll want to write, much less respond on the forums?
You have two ways out, no not that one.
Tata!
Renae
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| Ethical behavior and Consideration of Others [message #2612] |
Tue, 12 July 2005 20:43  |
OtherEric
Messages: 234
Registered: January 2005
Location: Pacific Northwest |
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Well, I'm going to hold off for a while on answering the actual poll question.
One thing I would like to say is I think comparing the real world to the story world is very much a vaild topic for discussion here. It does have to be done with tact, and the authors are of course free to simply rule that "this is the way it is in Whateleyverse". But comparing and contrasting, or bringing up real world facts, is an interesting topic of discussion.
I do think calling people's attention to the situation, and pointing out that people should perhaps be a little quicker to start new threads, is a good thing.
I also apologize for any thing I've done that has upset anyone; I figure that as one of the most prolific posters there must have been at least a few cases. It was never intentional, and I would greatly appreciate a PM to let me know when it happens in the future.
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| Ethical behavior and Consideration of Others [message #2613] |
Tue, 12 July 2005 21:02 |
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Renae
Messages: 657
Registered: January 2005
Location: El Paso, TX |
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| OtherEric |
Well, I'm going to hold off for a while on answering the actual poll question.
One thing I would like to say is I think comparing the real world to the story world is very much a vaild topic for discussion here. It does have to be done with tact, and the authors are of course free to simply rule that "this is the way it is in Whateleyverse". But comparing and contrasting, or bringing up real world facts, is an interesting topic of discussion.
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Ah, but the magic word is contrasting 
And debate is not a bad thing either. The issue I am seeing of late is not so much debate as it is 'This is the one way' and hence in a fictional place it is 'that one way too'. Arguing a case is vastly diffrent from trolling to be trolling. I suppose the other part I am worring about is based upon the -intent- of some posts.
For example:
If I were to use a racist comment and then say, "But I would never say that to you" : is not the comment still made?
I am seeing a disturbingly similar approach in some of the 'debates' or in oddly cross threaded and or hijacked threads. And yes it does worry me in that fact that people 'think' that the polically correct or similar addon phrases will make it -acceptable-.
Has society made us all innured to such things when we say them? Much less write them? Such that we accept them as being 'Ok'?
Debate is fun and interesting, a flame or strictly one sided argumentive exposition that is followed up with something like, 'Oh but I love your work' is hardly a freindly debate.
As it is , I may be venting, but then am I? There in lies the real question.
You have two ways out, no not that one.
Tata!
Renae
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| Ethical behavior and Consideration of Others [message #2618] |
Tue, 12 July 2005 21:51 |
OtherEric
Messages: 234
Registered: January 2005
Location: Pacific Northwest |
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Well, I went and posted a "NO" vote, but it's not a "No forever", it's a "not until we talk it out a bit more and try at least one more time to do without" vote. And, I'm operating under the assumption that Bob Arnold is already standing by to axe anything particluarly egrarious (sp?) already.
Mayby it's just by comparison with some of the other boards or forums I've been on, but this one really doesn't seem too bad.
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| Ethical behavior and Consideration of Others [message #2620] |
Tue, 12 July 2005 22:15 |
Motley
Messages: 289
Registered: January 2005
Location: I get to live with Renae,... |
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Those of you who are wondering about whether or not you have offended our artistic temperments can relax. If you actually have offended us, you should know who you are by now. (Go sit down OtherEric. Have some chocolate.)
The fact is that there are times when my friends get on the chat or on the email truly upset by the inconsiderate nature of some posts. We feel like our hands are tied when it comes to calling these people out because we don't want to look like the bad guys here. Maybe a lot would be solved if I simply took off the kid gloves.
Goon, stop ripping everything apart! Your, sometimes incorrect, attention to detail strays beyond helpful and into the realm of infuriating. Believe it or not, we do research our stories before posting, though granted, we can't catch everything before it goes out the door. When in doubt, the real answer to any debate regarding something in a story is 'because we said so.' This is fiction. We're allowed to do that. If we decide not to have gravity because it's Thursday, we can do that too. Hollywood has gotten away with much worse, and they get paid for it. We don't. We do this for fun. If you want us to keep writing, quit trying to take the fun out of it.
Ok, so I'm the big bad author now. If it helps Renae feel better then it was worth trashing my image. Blame it on my artistic temperment if you want, but hinting at the subject just wasn't helping at all. I'm going to quit telling Renae to keep the posts tame.
Hmmm....I need a new sig.
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| Ethical behavior and Consideration of Others [message #2621] |
Tue, 12 July 2005 23:31 |
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Dr. Bender
Messages: 1125
Registered: January 2005
Location: 47°9′S 126°43′W |
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What disturbs me more than stridant comments from the readership, and the reason I think this board needs to be moderated, is the prevailant cultural belief that the target of such cannot deliver their own rebuttle.
After Simple Game was posted, I have recieved no less than 89 e-mails pointing out spelling and grammatical errors, more than half chose to do so with insulting language. If one looks through the archives on this very board, you will find several astounding and, at times, heated arguments, the most memorable of which for myself featured THE WEATHER PATTERNS OF NEW HAMPSHIRE as it's main subject.
If we cannot even reply politely to the questions and critisisms of our work without being automatically demonized, then we certainly need moderation here to give a slap on the wrist to those who think they can bully people with their choice of language. Or to those who believe a discussion should be a one-sided affair where someone tells you what to do and you do it.
You see, being creative takes a certain confidence and fortitude of mind. One concentrates on certain things and leaves others aside, NOBODY can think of everything, much less show it in a limited space. Pick at the loose threads in anything and the whole thing will start to unravel, even Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Gone with the Wind and Dracula have flaws that can be exploited by critics. The fact remains that these books have been enjoyed and will continue to be enjoyed.
But if you worry and sap at people's confidence out of whatever motive, be it supportive, be it jealousy, or be it some unholy mixture of the two, then don't be surprised when authors start quitting. Are we tempermental? Yes, we are. These are our babies, we put our heart and soul into them, we work our fingers to the bone and sweat blood to get these things out the door to where you, our beloved readers, can share our thoughts and our visions. Here, we are doing this for FREE, because we enjoy sharing with you so much.
It is not beyond the pale for us to ask in return that any questions or discussion of our work be delivered to us with respect and tact. Being strident is NOT helpful, bullying is NOT helpful, all it gains is egotistical satisfaction and emotionally strains the target. This makes our joy a chore, leading us to wonder or even forget WHY we are doing this in the first place.
Like it or not, those of us who write have our own opinions of how to go about it, we have our own agendas and we do it OUR way because we are in control of what we write. If you want control, write something of your own, create your own world. I'll cheer you on. If you ask for help, I'll be there. If you want to discuss things, I will discuss my opinion with you politely, respectfully and responsably.
This is my opinion. If having my own opinion and standing up for it makes me a bad person, so be it. You're all entitled to your own opinion, but don't expect me to sit down and shut up simply because you give it.
What disturbs me most of all, however, is that I feel the need to say this.
The statement in my signature is false.
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| Moderation [message #2624] |
Wed, 13 July 2005 11:23 |
XaltatunOfAcheron
Messages: 1930
Registered: July 2005
Location: Atlantis |
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I've got a two things to say on this topic. First is the question of moderation.
In RL, I'm one of the moderators of a large software development mailing list. We have over six thousand members, and usually 30 or more posts a day. In the last year and a half, I've had to wave the moderator club about three times for threads that were getting a bit over the top, and caution two or three people to consider how they were saying things. I suspect most of the people on the list are unaware that I'm one of the moderators, although it's not exactly hidden.
It's an easy list because most of the posters are professionals who are quite used to professional communications.
I'm on a number of other lists with different degrees of moderation. The ones that have active moderators are generally poor; for some reason the active moderators seem to play favorites. One list that could be quite valuable harbors a man who has been kicked off of at least two other lists. As you might expect, his know-it-all attitude and arrogant posting style mean that the list has maybe a third of the membership, and about a fifth the activity, of a similar list.
One of the most valuable comments I've ever had about moderation came from a man who moderates several dozen hobby lists. He compared the job to the control rods in a nuclear reactor. Push them in too far, and the reactor dies and takes weeks to restart. Pull them out too far, and the thing melts down. The job of a moderator is to provide an environment where people will feel safe and welcome. What that requires of a moderator differs depending on the subject and the audience.
The next thing I'm going to say may not sit well with some people. If you think you may be one of them, please stop reading now.
I've been reading science fiction and fantasy for close to 50 years, and I've been paying attention to what publishers and published writers say about how you get your foot in the door of a real publishing company. Luck has a great deal to do with it, but so does mechanics.
This is going to be a harsh statement. Most of the stories I've seen to date would be rejected by slush pile readers on mechanics within the first couple of pages. It's gotten better, and some authors are better than others, but the average has got a ways to go before it reaches professional standards.
Why do I consider this important? It's not a personal issue; the editing standards are high enough that I consider the stories readable. I wouldn't be here otherwise, right?
On the very first page of submission guidelines, there is a statement that the authors are seeking professional publication, etc. I know editing is a PITA, I do enough of it myself on my work that I know how much I need to improve.
The only thing that publishing on web sites does is put more samples of your work in front of the editors; if it's below their standards, that's the impression they will take away. Pubication in vanity presses doesn't count (and Lulu is a vanity press) unless you've got the sales figures to back it up.
One trick on editing for mechanics: do it backwards. Edit the last sentence first and work backwards, sentence by sentence, until you reach the beginning. That disconnects the part of your brain that tries to get into the story and lets you concentrate on the words.
One final word. When I hear something from one person, I figure it might be their issue. When I hear it from two people, I begin to wonder. When I hear it independently from a number of people, it's my issue.
Xaltatun
Oxymoron: Jumbo Shrimp
Impossible: Sustainable Growth
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| Ethical behavior and Consideration of Others [message #2629] |
Wed, 13 July 2005 13:55 |
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Babs
Messages: 640
Registered: January 2005
Location: Left coast |
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| XaltatunOfAcheron |
Most of the stories I've seen to date would be rejected by slush pile readers on mechanics...
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This is an excellent topic, but not really on this thread. I've opened a new thread (Crystal hall / Proofing, grammar, editorial quality) where I blather on at length on it.
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| Am i your wicker man? [message #2632] |
Wed, 13 July 2005 14:28 |
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Doragoon
Messages: 210
Registered: March 2005
Location: WA |
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Relax everyone, they are just talking about me.
my only point is, where CAN fans criticize an author's work? I've seen real trolling, i've seen flame wars, nothing here has even come close to that. (well, i kinda come close to that a couple times, but i always apologize and usually delete or modify the offending post.)
there's a forum called "author's corner" it's understandable that authors should be there and the questions are directed at the authors. here a little more discretion would be expected.
Is the "Q&A" forum also another place to ask authors questions?
"the crystal hall" forum says it's a place for fans, but even there the authors discourage fans from saying anything bad about any of the author's works.
are the fans supposed to say anything other than, "Great story! i really enjoyed it and am looking forward to your next story!" Where can fans go to express their disgust at a story?
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| Only if you care to be King for a day. :o [message #2635] |
Wed, 13 July 2005 14:52 |
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Renae
Messages: 657
Registered: January 2005
Location: El Paso, TX |
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| Doragoon |
Are the fans supposed to say anything other than, "Great story! I really enjoyed it and am looking forward to your next story!" Where can fans go to express their disgust at a story?
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Anywhere, as long as they do it politely, of which is the primary issue folks should consider. When should a lack of politeness and destructive behavior be tollerated? Much less why should it be tollerated?
Hmm, then there is that word; politely. Politeness carries a great deal of wieght in an office space, much less the world at large. In some ways the Internet has give rise to a lack of politeness and othe social niceites. Considering the anonomity the net allows, anyone can verbaly knife some one in the back and not have to worry about looking over thier shoulders at night. So is it any wonder that folks might take issue with the manner in which they are treated?
Words carry wieght, whether or not they are processed as harmful or not, the subconsious -will- interpet them and emotion will be ellicted. So when folks blatantly attack others not mindful of the harm they inflict or when they revel in discord for discords own sake. I take offense. I have seen enough to recognise such for what it is, do I have to tollerate it? I think not.
You have two ways out, no not that one.
Tata!
Renae
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